[ENFJ] Are ENFJs the least "thoughtful" NF?

[OrangeAppled]

Maybe it's just the tendancy to keep their deeper thoughts close and not expose them to the criticism of others. Sort of like INTP want to keep their deeper feeling side sheltered.

This is my impression as well. ENFJs are very guarded, but it's not obvious at first....they are good at keeping their guard up while disarming others. A lot of people, including myself, report feeling so close to an ENFJ, only to realize they know little substantial info about that person.

When the ENFJs I know get serious and open up about how they really feel/think, then they tend to get sad (as brought out already), or very emotional, and I imagine they try and avoid that, as it seems tiring. For being so involved with others, they are very private.

It can bug me when I try to engage my ENFJ male friends in a deeper discussion and they turn it into a cute quipping fest. Sometimes they outright ignore any direct question about themselves and steer the conversation back into more comfortable, playful waters. Luckily, as an INFP, I'm pretty good at getting people to lay down on the couch and tell me about themselves and how they feel; it just takes some patience.

 

[jenocyde]

I wasn't speaking of just manipulation; the word, also, did not show up in my post.

I'm aware that the word didn't appear in your post - but we were talking about manipulation, and my post about manipulation referenced paranoia. And you mentioned being hurt whether there was intent or not, so what other conclusion did you expect me to draw?

 

[Domino]

This is my impression as well. ENFJs are very guarded, but it's not obvious at first....they are good at keeping their guard up while disarming others. A lot of people, including myself, report feeling so close to an ENFJ, only to realize they know little substantial info about that person.

When the ENFJs I know get serious and open up about how they really feel/think, then they tend to get sad (as brought out already), or very emotional, and I imagine they try and avoid that, as it seems tiring. For being so involved with others, they are very private.

I've said it before - my ENFP sister's ability to be open is both amazing and mortifying to me. I see me and my INFJ dad wincing when she boldly lays herself out there. She has the power of Ne. We must hide in our spider web for safety. The effect was even strong if me, Dad and my INTJ bff were present.

It can bug me when I try to engage my ENFJ male friends in a deeper discussion and they turn it into a cute quipping fest. Sometimes they outright ignore any direct question about themselves and steer the conversation back into more comfortable, playful waters. Luckily, as an INFP, I'm pretty good at getting people to lay down on the couch and tell me about themselves and how they feel; it just takes some patience.

Is that why I have such a girl crush on Dr. Beverly Crusher on "StarTrek"?

 

[nozflubber]

how unthoughtful of you to say!!

 

[runvardh]

I'm aware that the word didn't appear in your post - but we were talking about manipulation, and my post about manipulation referenced paranoia. And you mentioned being hurt whether there was intent or not, so what other conclusion did you expect me to draw?

It doesn't have to be manipulation for the paranoia to happen, but that either way it happens.

 

[Tallulah]

IME, ENFJs can be uber-thoughtful. But when their Ti is not respected by themselves and integrated into their daily lives, it's limited to thoughtfulness on their terms. Which often means at the expense of how others would appreciate thoughtfulness. Which, I'd bet, is the reason for the misperception between (some) non-ENFJs and ENFJs respective views on the subject.

We all have our blindspots, and probably non-ENFJs are missing some ENFJ strengths, while ENFJs are missing how their blind spots are unintentionally hurting others by not giving them the support that they need.

(I've seen ENFJs competent academically with their Ti but seemingly unwilling to apply it to their interpersonals--it's a little box that they open up for classroom-related activities and they keep it hidden away even when i'm pointing to it and jumping up and down trying to get them to pull out that tool and put it to use.)

I think this is true, too. One of my really good ENFJ friends IRL is very thoughtful in some ways but very self-absorbed in others. She likes things the way she likes them and is very protective about certain areas--she wants her home to be the one that people come to, and she'll invite you over to hers, but very rarely want to venture out and meet you halfway. It just doesn't occur to her that maybe it's an imposition for you to always come to hers--not to mention, she's very, very picky about her place. The lighting has to be a certain way, she'll ask you to take your shoes off, etc. The Fe only extends so far, and doesn't quiiiiite reach to true hospitality. It's more like inviting you to share the world that she wants to present--not the world that would make the most people comfortable. This tendency tends to reach into other interpersonal areas--she can become so preoccupied with her own problems that she doesn't notice that others might be just as burdened, but in different ways. Having said that, there are many ways in which she is very generous and kind, and she is a very deep thinker. She does tend to have "pet" theories that don't always make a lot of sense to me--lots of new agey kinda stuff that she will just accept at face value, etc.

I don't even know if this is on topic anymore, but the above quote made me think of it.

 

[SpottingTrains]

So what do you have to say ENFJs? What do you THINK about? What are you THOUGHTFUL about? If I cut your brain open what would I see? Are you like a pinata and candy will fall out? Will the secrets of the universe be revealed? I'm obviously being a little sarcastic but I'm really curious to know.

Talk to me.

It feels like you want to know IF we think or if we just leave a myriad of senseless posts in our wake

What do I think about? I guess, like everyone, it depends on what I'm currently involved in.

If I'm at work I'm looking at ways to most efficiently take on a task that satisfies the requirements in the shortest amount of time. Once I've completed that I don't think about the individual task at hand but at the overlaying structure of everything else that needs to be completed.

Everything I think about is abstract in some sense. I don't deal well if someone sends me a message saying they are sad. I need to know what situation is so I can attempt to infer how they are really feeling. I need to know how to help them; I'm not looking for a short-term fix, I want to heal the big picture.

I can't stand fixing something only to have it being destroyed again instantly. I understand maintenance but I always look to see how a system can be improved to reduce the amount of maintenance needed. Efficiency is almost constantly on my mind. Whether it be thinking about the quickest path to a certain place or wondering what work will lead to the quickest promotion.

This extends to relationships as well. I want to fix whatever is ailing you as quickly as I can so you can move on. Analyzing the different approaches to take and visualizing the the cost and benefit of each one. This is not to meet some end of my own but just a natural state of trying to help people get through whatever is troubling them. This manifests differently in every person, Fe doesn't require you to be loving or gentle. To me Fe demands cohesiveness through whatever means necessary, it is up to the wielder to choose how to apply it.

Overarching all of these is the constant need to succeed. I believe this has something to do with being a 3w2. My biggest fear in life is to amount to nothing. Of course many will be quick to point out that this is subjective and you can find happiness in everything (blah blah blah). So I will rephrase that.

I want to acquire knowledge and use it.

That is my biggest goal in life right now. I'm addicted to information and what it allows the brain to become.

So what do I think about?

Attempting to promote cohesiveness through efficiency with the goal being the accumulation of knowledge.

 

[SpottingTrains]

This is my impression as well. ENFJs are very guarded, but it's not obvious at first....they are good at keeping their guard up while disarming others. A lot of people, including myself, report feeling so close to an ENFJ, only to realize they know little substantial info about that person.

When the ENFJs I know get serious and open up about how they really feel/think, then they tend to get sad (as brought out already), or very emotional, and I imagine they try and avoid that, as it seems tiring. For being so involved with others, they are very private.

It can bug me when I try to engage my ENFJ male friends in a deeper discussion and they turn it into a cute quipping fest. Sometimes they outright ignore any direct question about themselves and steer the conversation back into more comfortable, playful waters. Luckily, as an INFP, I'm pretty good at getting people to lay down on the couch and tell me about themselves and how they feel; it just takes some patience.

Spot on.

 

[Usehername]

I think this is true, too. One of my really good ENFJ friends IRL is very thoughtful in some ways but very self-absorbed in others. She likes things the way she likes them and is very protective about certain areas--she wants her home to be the one that people come to, and she'll invite you over to hers, but very rarely want to venture out and meet you halfway. It just doesn't occur to her that maybe it's an imposition for you to always come to hers--not to mention, she's very, very picky about her place. The lighting has to be a certain way, she'll ask you to take your shoes off, etc. The Fe only extends so far, and doesn't quiiiiite reach to true hospitality. It's more like inviting you to share the world that she wants to present--not the world that would make the most people comfortable. This tendency tends to reach into other interpersonal areas--she can become so preoccupied with her own problems that she doesn't notice that others might be just as burdened, but in different ways. Having said that, there are many ways in which she is very generous and kind, and she is a very deep thinker. She does tend to have "pet" theories that don't always make a lot of sense to me--lots of new agey kinda stuff that she will just accept at face value, etc.

I don't even know if this is on topic anymore, but the above quote made me think of it.

I think it's still on topic--your friend seems similar to my friend. I still love my ENFJ to pieces, but I'm learning just how limited her great qualities are (by choice, I presume--I'm certain she could grow them to other areas, I just don't think she wants to because she likes things the way she likes them). I don't think it's selfishness in terms of her intentionally being selfish, but rather a lack of engaging IF-THEN, Ti thinking to even become aware of how her subtly imposed standards are an inconvenience, annoyance, and hindrance to the health of her relationships.

I think it might just be a maturity thing, though. A bit of normal self-absorption (like everyone has to some degree) mixed with "it is what it is," ExxJ "my world is structuring that around me" can lead to more deeply unintended self-absorption.

Until they mature enough to regularly and repeatedly pick things through with their Ti (where they can see how they don't live in a bubble, they aren't a lead character in a play, but rather their moods, actions and choices affect others) they probably unintentionally cause others to flex to their standards a lot.

 

[Kalach]

When Ti comes up with "I still haven't found the true understanding of what happened", Fe defaults to "I still love you." And Ni works on ways to make it real. Ergo, dark inside.


How's that for thoughtful? It's just a guess.

 

[Kalach]

OK I think I found one!

I wrote this a long time ago about Time Travel. The reason why I think this is a Ti interuption of Fe is because everyone was having a good time and then I went and threw a wet blanket on everything. Would you say this is a Fe-specification reaction against Ti?

Was that perhaps Si? Pointing out the facts.

Or perhaps Si+Ne? Pointing out the facts plus connecting the dots between the facts, the discussion, your friends, the now.

Dunno.


But with Ti in their somewhere. I like the idea that the inferior function displays itself in the good operation of the auxiliary.

 

[Tallulah]

I think it's still on topic--your friend seems similar to my friend. I still love my ENFJ to pieces, but I'm learning just how limited her great qualities are (by choice, I presume--I'm certain she could grow them to other areas, I just don't think she wants to because she likes things the way she likes them). I don't think it's selfishness in terms of her intentionally being selfish, but rather a lack of engaging IF-THEN, Ti thinking to even become aware of how her subtly imposed standards are an inconvenience, annoyance, and hindrance to the health of her relationships.

I think it might just be a maturity thing, though. A bit of normal self-absorption (like everyone has to some degree) mixed with "it is what it is," ExxJ "my world is structuring that around me" can lead to more deeply unintended self-absorption.

Until they mature enough to regularly and repeatedly pick things through with their Ti (where they can see how they don't live in a bubble, they aren't a lead character in a play, but rather their moods, actions and choices affect others) they probably unintentionally cause others to flex to their standards a lot.

Yep--luckily, our friend-chemistry is such that we're just straight with each other. She's a big straight-shooter (she intimidates a lot of people, actually), so when she does something that I'm not willing to flex over, and she can't see it, I can just set a boundary and not beat around the bush. We might fight, but we work through it, and figure out where we're not seeing eye-to-eye. She is one of the few people I've ever had to do that with, since she just kind of has that blindspot when it comes to the ramifications of her actions sometimes. I do feel that we're mostly very complementary, though.

 

[Kalach]

And another thing:

I wrote this a long time ago about Time Travel. The reason why I think this is a Ti interuption of Fe is because everyone was having a good time and then I went and threw a wet blanket on everything. Would you say this is a Fe-specification reaction against Ti?

It seems like there's a couple of things to remember, one serious one being it's kind of weird and strange to hear people talking about using their functions independent of other functions. Also I think it just really does make sense that anyone's inferior function will work best if it works through the person's auxiliary function, lending a sort of stamp of approval in the right spots, and being truculent in the wrong spots. And directly accessing the inferior function would generally be exhausting and fraught with peril.

I think, for example, that you as ESFJ may have a leg up on using Ti exactly because your first analytical port of call would naturally be Si. It seems to me, with no or minimal personal experience of Si, that introverted sensing will be much more methodical and analytical than Ni. So, apart from sounding much more concrete than the run of the mill ENFJ, you also sound more analytical. Certainly when you write, you are clearly more interested in grounding understanding in concrete, assessable stories. Personal preference or type-based tendency? Don't know.

A thought: when ESFJ want to analyze something, I bet you really prefer fact points as a basis, yeah? Details, maybe people facts too. That'd be Si in operation, wouldn't it? (Plus Ti looking over the shoulder.)

And maybe when ENFJs want to analyse something, they'll choose comparing the subject of analysis to The Dream. More about potentials and possible paths, and The Bigger Path, the one Ni has been dreaming on for so long.

That's a guess. I don't know really.

 

[proteanmix]

It seems like there's a couple of things to remember, one serious one being it's kind of weird and strange to hear people talking about using their functions independent of other functions. Also I think it just really does make sense that anyone's inferior function will work best if it works through the person's auxiliary function, lending a sort of stamp of approval in the right spots, and being truculent in the wrong spots. And directly accessing the inferior function would generally be exhausting and fraught with peril.

I think, for example, that you as ESFJ may have a leg up on using Ti exactly because your first analytical port of call would naturally be Si. It seems to me, with no or minimal personal experience of Si, that introverted sensing will be much more methodical and analytical than Ni. So, apart from sounding much more concrete than the run of the mill ENFJ, you also sound more analytical. Certainly when you write, you are clearly more interested in grounding understanding in concrete, assessable stories. Personal preference or type-based tendency? Don't know.

A thought: when ESFJ want to analyze something, I bet you really prefer fact points as a basis, yeah? Details, maybe people facts too. That'd be Si in operation, wouldn't it? (Plus Ti looking over the shoulder.)

And maybe when ENFJs want to analyse something, they'll choose comparing the subject of analysis to The Dream. More about potentials and possible paths, and The Bigger Path, the one Ni has been dreaming on for so long.

That's a guess. I don't know really.

Hmmm, this is also something I'm wondering. Am I "seemingly" more analytical than the ENFJs on the forum because I'm not running on Ni+Ti, but instead Si+Ti? I must admit, I'd never recognize Fe fueled Si+Ti through anything on the forum because I'm only supposed to be concerned about traditions if I'm an ESFJ (which I don't recognize in myself) and recognizing any other manifestation would be difficult. And trying to tease it out IRL is very difficult and takes a lot of controlling the conversation to get that deeper Si+Ti analysis out. So that could be a point of lack of recognition because maybe they are doing some version of Fe fueled Ni+Ti and I'm not recognizing it as such.

This is a good point and thanks for saying it. This could be what I'm noticing and there's no lack of anything.

 

[bearette]

i didn't read this whole tread so apologizes, etc, if I am misinterpreting...

but it depends on how you define thoughtful. I think you may be biased towards the introvert's kind of thoughtfulness. Introverts tend to express thoughts most clearly in writing, so that may be why you think that the ENFJ comments here are not "thoughtful". Also, extroverts are more likely to be out talking to people rather than on a forum, so the sample size of ENFJ's here is much smaller than other types (INFP and INFJ for instance!).

when I have a one-on-one conversation with my ENFJ close friend, he has lots of insights about so many things. Granted he is probably not as introspective as me, but....he's an extrovert. However he can very clearly express different kinds of emotions in a way that I have heard from few others. But I think the ENFJ strength lies in talking more than writing (I could be wrong though as I don't know many ENFJ's!)

 

[Domino]

My ENTJ bff Athena is going through a very hard time. People are treating her badly. I spoke to her on the phone last night and I told her that I would drive to her house (in another state) and eat her enemies.

Me: *ding dong*
Enemies of Athena: *opens door*
Me: RAWWWRRRRR!!!!!! RAAAWWRRRAAARRRGGG!!!
Enemies: EEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!! *haplessly fleeing*

This made her feel so much better, just knowing that I loved her and that I'd drive for hours just to eat her enemies. lol That's my brand of thoughtfulness, and she appreciates it.

I also tell my mom and dad thank you a lot when they do things for me. It pays to be polite and I want them to know how much I appreciate their efforts on my behalf, but I also say thank you to service persons (like our awesome plumber), bank tellers, the bag boy at the grocery store, etc because I think it's important to show people some respect. I was the little girl in kindergarten saying thank you for my teacher's assistance - I was brought up to be civilized. I guess that could be considered an observation of societal norms, but to me it's more than that. It's about according dignity to others whether they "deserve" it or not.

 

[jenocyde]

I also tell my mom and dad thank you a lot when they do things for me. It pays to be polite and I want them to know how much I appreciate their efforts on my behalf, but I also say thank you to service persons (like our awesome plumber), bank tellers, the bag boy at the grocery store, etc because I think it's important to show people some respect. I was the little girl in kindergarten saying thank you for my teacher's assistance - I was brought up to be civilized. I guess that could be considered an observation of societal norms, but to me it's more than that. It's about according dignity to others whether they "deserve" it or not.

+1. This is one of the many reasons why you are awesome. Everybody is equal and deserves equal respect.

 

[Domino]

+1. This is one of the many reasons why you are awesome. Everybody is equal and deserves equal respect.

Fankee.

I just can't abide boorish behavior. And how hard is it really to say "thank you"? Takes two seconds and it leaves behind a good feeling with someone you may have to do business with again, and who will regard you more favorably.

Down South, we have another polite behavior that makes me laugh. I was speaking to man in local government on the phone, he was very nice and had that old skool Southern gentleman thing kicking.

After our phone conversation ended (it was for some financial reason, but we even discussed how to get rid of tree ants in one's kitchen -- that's how casual it can get down here), he told me "Stay in tuh-day, Miss Pink, it's too hauht to come see me."

When I was a diesel mechanic, I used to have all sorts of country/old skool Southern men calling me Miss Pink, and I think it's charming.

 

[cascadeco]

You know, originally I didn't think I had anything to add to this thread, but earlier today I was musing over an ENFJ I dated at one time.

He was certainly capable of deep conversation, intellectual topics, analyzing things, and so on, and that's one thing I really liked about him - we could really engage well on a 'deep', thoughtful level...something I hadn't really experienced with others I had been involved with prior to him. I know he was also just reaching this point, though, where he willingly stepped down into the 'darker regions', and more negative aspects of life, etc, and talked about them, and really opened up about his own personal struggles as well as issues he had interacting with others -- something he admitted he hadn't really done for the majority of his life growing up, as his kneejerk reaction was to always just put on a happy face and joke around, etc. I really admired these deeper currents of his, and it's what drew me to him.

So I was chagrined when I introduced him to friends, as he didn't show ANY of that - he became what I saw as superficial, constantly making jokes (and sort of bad ones at that), trying to keep the atmosphere upbeat, etc, and to be perfectly honest I was sort of embarassed, as my friends in turn didn't really see any bit of who HE was - just this little joking charade he was putting on. I think it was engrained in him to just put on this deflective front, or something. I don't know. I'm not saying this is necessarily an ENFJ thing, as he, like anyone, had 35 years of 'baggage' - from his family, life experiences, whatever.

 

[jenocyde]

Yes, but did you really expect him to talk about such personal things to your friends?