Can someone explain to me why people supported Brexit in the first place?

[Red Herring]

I sympathize with the Scottish. They really got screwed over by the English.

S: We want a referendum on independence
E: Sure, whatever, but remember that without us you would have to leave the EU.
S: Damn. Okay then, I guess we'll grudgingly stay
E: Hey, let's vote on Brexit
S:What? Remain, obviously!
E: Hmm, I guess we'll leave the EU after all
S: Ahhhhhhh!
E: Now remember, no more referendums in the foreseeable future
S: You're enjoying this, aren't you?

 

[Lark]

How is what Johnson is doing to parliament not damaging democracy? I think before 2016, probably even for a while after that, people would have gone to the streets about this in masses. It would be considered a massive scandal. Now this seems to be the new normal.

What was once a beacon of democracy and stability now looks highly unstable and shows utter disregard for democratic procedure.

Yeah, its anti-democratic but there's a lot of confusion about what democracy is, most of the English electorate think that it is a head count or simple majority, so they think that because there was a vote cast with a particular number in the past it must be respected at all costs.

By the same logic any and all future Liberal or Labour or Other administration should carry on the legislative program of the Thatcher government or William Pitt or Benjamin Disraeli even.

Ridiculous.

There's a book and there was a two part TV movie about this sort of thing called A Very British Coup, in the fiction it was triggered by the election of a genuine left wing populist, like Corbyn.

 

[Lark]

I sympathize with the Scottish. They really got screwed over by the English.

S: We want a referendum on independence
E: Sure, whatever, but remember that without us you would have to leave the EU.
S: Damn. Okay then, I guess we'll grudgingly stay
E: Hey, let's vote on Brexit
S:What? Remain, obviously!
E: Hmm, I guess we'll leave the EU after all
S: Ahhhhhhh!
E: Now remember, no more referendums in the foreseeable future
S: You're enjoying this, aren't you?

You think that's bad:

E: Pretty bad about the potato crop and all.
I: At least there's a corn crop and all.
E: We'll have that. Eat your children Paddies.

 

[Falcarius]

How is what Johnson is doing to parliament not damaging democracy? I think before 2016, probably even for a while after that, people would have gone to the streets about this in masses. It would be considered a massive scandal. Now this seems to be the new normal.

What was once a beacon of democracy and stability now looks highly unstable and shows utter disregard for democratic procedure.

Prorogation is nothing new; 1948, the House of Lords was blocking reforms to its own power so the Labour Government led by Attlee uses the procedure. It is part of the Uk democratic system. If it is a good thing or a bad thing is a completely different question.

The members of parliament voted for referendum and they said they would act accordingly to the results. The country voted to leave so the members of parliament voted to invoke article 20. Theresa May called an election in 2017 both Labour and the Conservatives had it in their manifesto to respect the result of referendum. For some reason Labour Party has gone back on its word. Falcarius voted for my current Labour MP and would not have done so if I knew her and the her party (Labour Party) would not keep its election promise. If the Labour Party did what they said, then some Theresa May deal would have been agreed. It is because of Corbyn playing silly games that the UK will leave with no deal.

Falcarius believe if there is a referendum then the referendum results should be acted on; he is not a hypocrite in that I voted in favour of Alternative Vote referendum but the difference he is not a cry baby and respected the result. He thinks there should be another referendum on what kind of Brexit as they country voted to leave but not how to leave – Norway Option v May Deal V No Deal. He would vote for Theresa May's deal. If the country voted for Norway deal which he personal think is the worst possible deal then he would accept that. If the country has given Brexit a reasonable time to allow Brexit to work by actually leaving, then he think it would be reasonable to have another referendum in 5 or 10 years if the country has clearly changed its mind; in that situation Falcarius could potentially change my vote. Ignoring a referendum which is purest form of democracy and complaining about the PM using prorogation as non-democratic is laughable.

 

[Falcarius]

NI will have its own problems but there is a friendly neighbouring state in form of the ROI which feels at least some obligation to the people in NI. Its clear that England does not. Beyond the votes it can secure from NI to shore up its incredibly small parliamentary majority.

You mean the same Republic of Ireland who are going to be forced to make a wall by the EU?

Well, you got a lot of people who dont understand democracy now and think that single verdicts are set in stone forever, the nature of democracy is that it involves change, in fact in most democratic nations there are even term limits and other mechanisms to ensure that change never becomes that infrequent.

In the UK Parliament its legal practice that administrations can not pass legislation that will be binding upon their successors, that's just how much they expect change to be respected, any government that is freshly elected can choose to undo every piece of legislation introduced by that which went before (and the UK conservatives did so, war debts are the only legacies of the New Labour experiment in neo-liberalism now).

But one has to give a chance for Brexit to fail or succeed which is something people like yourself seem to be scared of for whatever reason. When the party Falcarius doesn't like wins an election then he accept the results and wait for the next election to see if they did a good job or not. He doesn't become a crybaby like Remainers, as he think they would give a chance for Brexit to fail or work and the same with governments he disagrees with. He think Remainers should do the same and stop being so hypercritical.

Yeah, its anti-democratic but there's a lot of confusion about what democracy is, most of the English electorate think that it is a head count or simple majority, so they think that because there was a vote cast with a particular number in the past it must be respected at all costs.

That is kind of how democracy works...

 

[Falcarius]

Falcaris is the kind of person dinosaur who likes the idea of an EU, in that countries work together to solve the problem on the continent but think it needs to undergo massive reform. If there was referendum 15 years ago Falcarius would have voted to stay. The thing what turned him to voting to leave was seeing how the EU messed up the migration crises and how it treated Greece horribly. Any organisation which inflects the damage it did on Greece should cease to exist. He has given up on EU as it is too incompetent and unwilling to ever reform. He hopes Brexit will speed up EU reform and get it shit together.

Falcarius would actually thinks the UK should leave on modified version of Theresa May's deal. If he was a MP I would have voted for it all 3 times as his main concern was the EU may use the backstop to keep the UK in by the backdoor; the withdrew agreement needs reworking. He not one of these neo-liberal fantasist who think the UK will become the new Singapore. He is actually a bit to left economical and a bit social concentrative than the average person. He voted for the Lib Dem in 2005 and 2010, as he thought New Labour was a complete shit-show. In 2015 he voted for Green Party because he did not think Ed Milliband had progressive enough economic policy and he could not bring myself to vote for Labour MP who voted for the Iraq war even all those years later. In 2017 his Mp retired and he voted for the Labour party even though he voted against Corbyn in leadership contest the year before, as he gets a vote as he is a trade union member, as he think Corbyn's leadership skill are rubbish but generally supported the policies in the manifesto. In the European Election he voted Brexit Party as he want to actually leave EU as that is what the country voted for. If Labour campaign for second referendum he would not vote for them.

If the UK left and and gave Brexit a chance of say 5 or 10 years he could potentially change his opinion if it was clear it was worse all around than being in EU. If there was second referendum before the country left the EU he would vote leave again, with even more conviction and campaign for a leave vote, unlike when he voted leave last time heavyhearted . Since he think the Remainers are crybabies and are undermining the purest for of democracy and he does not like cry babies nor people who undermine democracy.

 

[Red Herring]

That is kind of how democracy works...

See, that is where we fundamentally disagree. To me that is kindergarden democracy. Democracy does not mean the rule of the majority, it means (self)governance of the people. The people are a very diverse group. They include the rich and the poor, the healthy and the sick, the educated and the uneducated, the adventurous and the cautious, the progressives and the conservatives and everybody in between. Democracy is about balancing those interests as much as possible, respecting the majority while protecting both minorities and individuals. That is done through division of power, checks and balances and a regularly redistributed delegation of complex issues to elected officials. A referendum is crayon democracy. Parliament is more essential to democracy than any single referendum.

 

[Virtual ghost]

See, that is where we fundamentally disagree. To me that is kindergarden democracy. Democracy does not mean the rule of the majority, it means (self)governance of the people. The people are a very diverse group. They include the rich and the poor, the healthy and the sick, the educated and the uneducated, the adventurous and the cautious, the progressives and the conservatives and everybody in between. Democracy is about balancing those interests as much as possible, respecting the majority while protecting both minorities and individuals. That is done through division of power, checks and balances and a regularly redistributed delegation of complex issues to elected officials. A referendum is crayon democracy. Parliament is more essential to democracy than any single referendum.

I can to some degree agree with his definition of a democracy since you can't always make everyone happy. However that doesn't mean that the votes shouldn't be questioned or challenged, especially if it is obvious that there are some "bad turns" for the country or some people changed their mind.


But all of that is besides the point, what Boris is doing is simply undemocratic and gaming of the system. Especially since he isn't elected by the public.
If you watch history stuff like this often end with serious unrests.

 

[ceecee]

He hopes Brexit will speed up EU reform and get it shit together.

This make no sense. If you want to leave the EU, why do you care if it gets its shit together or not?

 

[Falcarius]

This make no sense. If you want to leave the EU, why do you care if it gets its shit together or not?

Falcarius believe the in EU's present state it is better not existing at all. But as he mentioned in this thread he likes the idea of the EU of the countries working together but the EU is unreformable. He has nothing personally against the EU; he hopes the EU and UK have a much better relationship where they are not stepping on each others toes and using each other as a excuse for inaction. He think if Brexit actually happens, a major country leaving the EU will be a wake-up call to the leaders in the EU need and jolt the organisation in deep reflection.


Also maybe Falcarius is unique but he generally wants the best for everyone in the world be it the UK, EU, China, USA, Russia or anywhere else. Do you not want the best for Canada and Mexico as your closest neighbours?

 

[Lark]

You mean the same Republic of Ireland who are going to be forced to make a wall by the EU?

Nope. The British. Well, the English really.

But one has to give a chance for Brexit to fail or succeed which is something people like yourself seem to be scared of for whatever reason. When the party Falcarius doesn't like wins an election then he accept the results and wait for the next election to see if they did a good job or not. He doesn't become a crybaby like Remainers, as he think they would give a chance for Brexit to fail or work and the same with governments he disagrees with. He think Remainers should do the same and stop being so hypercritical.

Success or failure? Nobody said nothing about no success or failure, nobody said anything but things could get worse and it had be given a chance at the time of the referendum. It was all a guaranteed plus, we were all going to lottery winners that day. Seems like a different story now. Not even accurate to say its remainers who're skeptical about Brexit anymore, most of those who're not so hot on the idea anymore are those who voted for it at referendum time.

People who're all for it these days are all Sinn Fein or Scottish Nationalist Party or other groups like that looking forward to the end of the UK.

That is kind of how democracy works...

Seriously?

I cant remember the last time anyone reported that lynch mobs where really democratic yo all.

 

[Lark]

See, that is where we fundamentally disagree. To me that is kindergarden democracy. Democracy does not mean the rule of the majority, it means (self)governance of the people. The people are a very diverse group. They include the rich and the poor, the healthy and the sick, the educated and the uneducated, the adventurous and the cautious, the progressives and the conservatives and everybody in between. Democracy is about balancing those interests as much as possible, respecting the majority while protecting both minorities and individuals. That is done through division of power, checks and balances and a regularly redistributed delegation of complex issues to elected officials. A referendum is crayon democracy. Parliament is more essential to democracy than any single referendum.

I think its got to do with aggregating self-government too, popular sovereignty too as I understand it. I can see merits in some of what's been said about participatory democracy and I can also see what's been said about limited democracy too (which is not simply excluding people from votes but restricting participation to voting for career politicians).

Its not meant to be a headcount or majoritarianism, there's a hell of a lot of ugly things that could be described as democratic by that measure, although that's just the thing there's a bunch of people in the UK who believe that's all it amounts to. Its also sure as hell not about flexibility, U-Turns, course corrections or redirections. All that's seen as weakness some how. It chills me to think that the same people could be licenced to drive vehicles and apply the same thinking to every time they take the car out.

A lot of the time its populism being conflated with democracy or demagoguery conflated with democracy and those things are not the same as democracy but they are diseases that democracies are particularly susceptible.

The thing about the parties which talk up their democratic character (sometimes even label themselves as being officially democratic parties) is it always makes me think about the "Peoples Democracies" during the Cold War or afterwards, sometimes when you have to keep insisting on it its because you got a different idea of what that is to everyone else has.

 

[Lark]

I can to some degree agree with his definition of a democracy since you can't always make everyone happy. However that doesn't mean that the votes shouldn't be questioned or challenged, especially if it is obvious that there are some "bad turns" for the country or some people changed their mind.


But all of that is besides the point, what Boris is doing is simply undemocratic and gaming of the system. Especially since he isn't elected by the public.
If you watch history stuff like this often end with serious unrests.

You cant please everyone at any given moment but the people who're displeased are free to organise in the mean time and try to change things the next time there's s contest, if they can spread their opinion far and wide enough they can even bring forward the date of that contest from when it ought to be planned next.

There's even something called referendums which can be called at times in between the regular contests in order to be sure of the public's views about something at that given moment.

Democracy sure isnt going to please everyone but its meant to be the most flexible and changeable variety of governance or decision making there is!! Its totally meant to be the JKD "Be Like Water My Friend" (Bruce Lee) version of governance there is.

And that's part of why populists will take advantage of democracy when they can but most of the time out and out hate it. Out and out hate it.

 

[Falcarius]

See, that is where we fundamentally disagree. To me that is kindergarden democracy. Democracy does not mean the rule of the majority, it means (self)governance of the people. The people are a very diverse group. They include the rich and the poor, the healthy and the sick, the educated and the uneducated, the adventurous and the cautious, the progressives and the conservatives and everybody in between. Democracy is about balancing those interests as much as possible, respecting the majority while protecting both minorities and individuals. That is done through division of power, checks and balances and a regularly redistributed delegation of complex issues to elected officials. A referendum is crayon democracy. Parliament is more essential to democracy than any single referendum.

What you are arguing is not really democratic, as apparently you think the country should just ignore the fact that the country massive movement towards leaving in that it went from 67.23% supporting membership in the first referendum in 1975 compared to 51.89% majority supporting leave in 2016, that on the last few European Elections that Eurosceptic parties have came first in the UK, ignore that a majority voted to leave in the referendum which MPs voted for overwhelmingly and promised to respect, and that in the last general election in 2017 that 83% of people voted for parties that promised to respect the results of the referendum.


A)What is your democratic alternative to what happened in letting the people decide in referendum; since it just seems you just want to ignore anyone who disagrees with you which certainly isn't democracy?

B) Why are you unwilling to accept that the UK wants to leave and what would have to happen for you to acknowledge the majority wanted to leave?

C) Can you see how not letting Brexit happening is undermine your argument since it is like equivalent of a PM refusing to step down as leader after a landslide election. Would it be democratic Gordon Brown to refuse to handover after the 2010 and if not how is ignoring a referendum an different?

 

[Lark]

This make no sense. If you want to leave the EU, why do you care if it gets its shit together or not?

He doesnt hope that.

He hopes it'll fail.

Anyone who truly supports Brexit wants it confirmed that it will not work without them.

As though the courts are not already in on how countries cope without English stewardship? I'm sure there's people in Westminister still waiting on the "inevitable" collapse of the ROI or Indian Independence (shit, the American "colonies" too in all likelihood).

It doesnt surprise me that some people want that, what's strange to me is that the English can be so easily duped into joining that particular camp, imagine if Japan or China was not able to unite under a single national government and remained in their "warring states" stage of history? The west would be laughing and that's for sure, so there's definitely some geo-political interests which dont want to see that end on the European stage.

 

[Lark]

Falcarius believe the in EU's present state it is better not existing at all. But as he mentioned in this thread he likes the idea of the EU of the countries working together but the EU is unreformable. He has nothing personally against the EU; he hopes the EU and UK have a much better relationship where they are not stepping on each others toes and using each other as a excuse for inaction. He think if Brexit actually happens, a major country leaving the EU will be a wake-up call to the leaders in the EU need and jolt the organisation in deep reflection.


Also maybe Falcarius is unique but he generally wants the best for everyone in the world be it the UK, EU, China, USA, Russia or anywhere else. Do you not want the best for Canada and Mexico as your closest neighbours?

Well that's nice, maybe I'll be able to wish the English well in a Post-UK reconfiguration.

Nope.

Probably not.

 

[Falcarius]

Nope. The British. Well, the English really.

The EU have admitted that the would have to force Ireland to construct a hard border in-order to protect the integrity of customs union and common-market as Ireland is a gaping hole otherwise to allow the UK to trade with EU while by passing its commitments. It is in the UK interest to have no border ironically for that reason.

Success or failure? Nobody said nothing about no success or failure, nobody said anything but things could get worse and it had be given a chance at the time of the referendum. It was all a guaranteed plus, we were all going to lottery winners that day. Seems like a different story now. Not even accurate to say its remainers who're skeptical about Brexit anymore, most of those who're not so hot on the idea anymore are those who voted for it at referendum time.

The last time Falcarius checked the UK was still in the EU and Brexit has not happened so how do you judging what was the outcome on?

Turning the question around the UK hasn't left and if the economy is so bad then isn't the UK better of leaving?

Yeah, cry babies who lost two referendums.

Seriously?

I cant remember the last time anyone reported that lynch mobs where really democratic yo all.

Yes, seriously.

 

[Falcarius]

He doesnt hope that.

He hopes it'll fail.

Anyone who truly supports Brexit wants it confirmed that it will not work without them.

It would be much appreciated if you did not put word in ones mouth, since Falcarius explained that was not the case. See quote below:

Falcarius believe the in EU's present state it is better not existing at all. But as he mentioned in this thread he likes the idea of the EU of the countries working together but the EU is unreformable. He has nothing personally against the EU; he hopes the EU and UK have a much better relationship where they are not stepping on each others toes and using each other as a excuse for inaction. He think if Brexit actually happens, a major country leaving the EU will be a wake-up call to the leaders in the EU need and jolt the organisation in deep reflection.


Also maybe Falcarius is unique but he generally wants the best for everyone in the world be it the UK, EU, China, USA, Russia or anywhere else. Do you not want the best for Canada and Mexico as your closest neighbours?

Well that's nice, maybe I'll be able to wish the English well in a Post-UK reconfiguration.

Nope.

Probably not.

Why are you so bitter?

 

[Lark]

The EU have admitted that the would have to force Ireland to construct a hard border in-order to protect the integrity of customs union and common-market as Ireland is a gaping hole otherwise to allow the UK to trade with EU while by passing its commitments. It is in the UK interest to have no border ironically.

The english.

The last time Falcarius checked the UK was still in the EU and Brexit has not happened so how do you judging if it was the outcome?

Yeah, cry babies who lost two referendums.

Its been good so far, wouldnt you say?

Can tell you dont have any shares or investments.

Cry babies? Here, lets me clear about this, I think the English really SHOULD engage in radical isolationist experiments, they really, really should. It should be carried out in such a way that it does not have terrible consequences for the neighboring nations of Scotland and Ireland.

Yes, seriously.

Burn the witch.

I guess.

Look forward to the hard border with Scotland. Gonna be a good day.

 

[Lark]

It would be much appreciated if you did not put word in ones mouth, since Falcarius explained that was not the case. See quote below:











Why are you so bitter?

I'm not bitter.

I'm just a really, really big fan of the English having freedom to go their own way, do their own thing.

Like pursue a TOTAL independence from the rest of the world.

- - - Updated - - -

It would be much appreciated if you did not put word in ones mouth, since Falcarius explained that was not the case. See quote below:











Why are you so bitter?

I'm not bitter.

I'm just a really, really big fan of the English having freedom to go their own way, do their own thing.

Like pursue a TOTAL independence from the rest of the world.

The more radically isolationist and monocultural the better. Like some sort of reservation