[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[Amargith]

Adding meaning to that which is meaningless is meaningless.

Narrowmindedness is such a pity

 

[Mr.Time]

Narrowmindedness is such a pity

Yes, your reluctance to admit that all your silly efforts are in vain could be called narrowmindedness as well.

 

[Amargith]

Yes, your reluctance to admit that all your silly efforts are in vain could be called narrowmindedness as well.

Learn to laugh. Just once a while...it has its perks

Also..it's not my mission to show you how to find meaning in life. I already have a fulltime job

 

[Mr.Time]

Learn to laugh. Just once a while...it has its perks

Also..it's not my mission to show you how to find meaning in life. I already have a fulltime job

I don't remember asking.

 

[Amargith]

I don't remember asking.

I'm aware of that. It was merely a friendly suggestion

 

[sculpting]

Agreed...existence is entirely meaningless. All conquests are in vain. The universe exists for "nothing" (probably).

Deep down most INTJs realize this and we simply use ENFPs (or anyone else) to satisfy our instinctual carnal desires and our utter sense of despair. Its temporary relief. But I have a feeling that this "using of others" is what is glorified and called "love" (in all relationships), whether the parties involved realize it or not.

Hence, I suspect that relationships where INTJs and ENFPs do not get along are those in which the INTJ realizes the senselessness of it all, and the silly (and annoying) ENFP foolishly believes in the aggrandized (traditional) concept of "love".

I sense someone is trapped in an Se shadow.

Ne-Si doesnt seek to accomplish a set goal. Instead the worldview tends to be more cyclical-one feel part of a greater whole, a cycle, and endless unfolding. Thus-even the entps-once their Fe grows in-are comfortable becoming simply a piece that molds with the other pieces to yield something greater. In spite of how self focused Xi can make us appear, in reality we are externally focused upon the benefit to the group around us.

Ni-Se does no such thing, huh. It seems like a giant arrow, a one-way path. There is progress, improvement, tangible results, an objective accomplishable goal-a vision to be implemented.

ENFPs I think bring a lightness, a companionship to the mission that a given INTJ has embarked upon. I feel that I weave in and out of the Ni-Se path, dancing, giving delight and adoration, and at least a sense that the INTJ is not alone in what they seek to accomplish.

But all the while I still have my own path as an ENFP. It transcends reality and doesnt always produce something tangible.

It is orthogonal. We should think of perceiving functions as being orthogonal entities-two individuals intersect, meet briefly and then go on their own paths. But perhaps like EM waves-they can meet again after another cycle. Each time we meet, the bonds are strengthened.

Like a dance.

 

[onemoretime]

Who gives a shit about the inherent non-existence of existence, anyway? You might be living a cosmic lie, but you've still got to live it.

 

[SillySapienne]

Agreed...existence is entirely meaningless. All conquests are in vain. The universe exists for "nothing" (probably).

Deep down most INTJs realize this and we simply use ENFPs (or anyone else) to satisfy our instinctual carnal desires and our utter sense of despair. Its temporary relief. But I have a feeling that this "using of others" is what is glorified and called "love" (in all relationships), whether the parties involved realize it or not.

Hence, I suspect that relationships where INTJs and ENFPs do not get along are those in which the INTJ realizes the senselessness of it all, and the silly (and annoying) ENFP foolishly believes in the aggrandized (traditional) concept of "love".

Wow, just had a beautiful morning with my INTJ boyfriend, took a ridiculously hard yoga class, for me, not for him, walked to breakfast, then sipped on some fresh-squeezed juice on our way back home, in the car, listening to Bob Marley and Radiohead.



I am not in the business of using anybody, I believe that we have our right to be autonomous human beings, and that force should be executed minimally and only when necessary, i.e. exclusively in dire straights when it will yield positive net gain.

But I digress.

If you can't find beauty, love, and richness in this universe then I can empathize with you, when I was wretchedly depressed, I too, found no meaning, no worthwhile purpose to live, even pleasure seemed disdainful, but, life is what you make it, the way in which it will manifest largely depends on the way in which you perceive it, in other words, your perspective holds a lot of weight regarding your life and ultimately your well-being.

Do you know how good it feels to connect deeply with someone, to sacrifice, to give yourself, to open yourself up and to be received, in other words to love and be loved!!!

If you do not know, Mr. Time, I do understand your skepticism, and your well, misbegotten pessimism.

There is nothingness, chaos, futility, death, ugliness, etc.

But there is also complexity, beauty, harmony, love, and depth all inherent to life, and hence the universe.

You need an existential hug, like big time.

 

[Zarathustra]

Agreed...existence is entirely meaningless. All conquests are in vain. The universe exists for "nothing" (probably).

Deep down most INTJs realize this and we simply use ENFPs (or anyone else) to satisfy our instinctual carnal desires and our utter sense of despair. Its temporary relief. But I have a feeling that this "using of others" is what is glorified and called "love" (in all relationships), whether the parties involved realize it or not.

Hence, I suspect that relationships where INTJs and ENFPs do not get along are those in which the INTJ realizes the senselessness of it all, and the silly (and annoying) ENFP foolishly believes in the aggrandized (traditional) concept of "love".

How old are you, Mr. Time?

I've gone through those thoughts/feelings before.

Eventually, I got over them. As you will, if you have the strength.

(I also happen to be the INTJ boyfriend from the post above.)

 

[SillySapienne]

What difference does it make? We all die in the end.

Precisely!!!

That's the first step to embracing life, realizing it is transient, and finite, (for you).

My life is precious because it can end at any second, to my knowledge, there is no after life, therefore... This is it, right now, today, this moment, so, appreciate it, relish and savor it, do what you will with it but at the very least, do what you want.

Life is too short to be miserable and unhappy.

You always have the option to kill yourself, that should be both comforting and, at least for me, knowing that I am *choosing* to live forces me to be and act in ways that I see/feel as though are the most fulfilling.

I don't have to be here, but I am here, what of it, what can and should I do with my life to make it worthwhile.

 

[Zarathustra]

What difference does it make? We all die in the end.

Agreed...existence is entirely meaningless. All conquests are in vain. The universe exists for "nothing" (probably).

I'd say you're overdue an NFP to show you how to enjoy life and make it meaningful

Adding meaning to that which is meaningless is meaningless.

Narrowmindedness is such a pity

Yes, your reluctance to admit that all your silly efforts are in vain could be called narrowmindedness as well.

Learn to laugh. Just once a while...it has its perks

“Would it not be necessary?” . . . No, three times no! You young Romantics: it should not be necessary! But it is very likely that things will end up like that—that you will end up like that—namely, “being consoled,” as it stands written, in spite of all the self-training for what is serious and frightening, “metaphysically consoled,” in short, the way Romantics finish up, as Christians. . . . No! You should first learn the art of consolation in this life—you should learn to laugh, my young friends, even if you wish to remain thoroughly pessimistic. From that, as laughing people, some day or other perhaps you will for once ship all metaphysical consolation to the devil—and then away with metaphysics! Or, to speak the language of that Dionysian fiend called Zarathustra:*

“Lift up your hearts, my brothers, high, higher! And for my sake don’t forget your legs as well! Raise up your legs, you fine dancers, and better yet, stand on your heads!”

“This crown of the man who laughs, this crown wreathed with roses—I have placed this crown upon myself. I myself declare my laughter holy. Today I found no one else strong enough for that.”

“Zarathustra the dancer, Zarathustra the light hearted, who beckons with his wings, a man ready to fly, hailing all birds, prepared and ready, a careless and blessed man.”—

“Zarathustra the truth-teller, Zarathustra the true laugher, not an impatient man, not a man of absolutes, someone who loves jumps and leaps to the side—I myself crown myself!”

“This crown of the laughing man, this crown of rose wreaths: you my brothers, I throw this crown to you! Laughter I declare sacred: you higher men, for my sake learn— to laugh!”

 

[SillySapienne]

" I myself declare my laughter holy."

^I like this a lot.

Ride si sapis

Laugh if you are wise.

 

[SillySapienne]

Regarding death, or more appropriately Life!

YouTube - Randy Pausch Last Lecture: Achieving Your Childhood Dreams

 

[Mr.Time]

How old are you, Mr. Time?

I've gone through those thoughts/feelings before.

Eventually, I got over them. As you will, if you have the strength.

(I also happen to be the INTJ boyfriend from the post above.)

Perhaps it was your weakness (not strength) which made you reluctant to continue down the path of unforgiving, merciless "logic" and "reason"? It is a painful path that most are reluctant and unable to pursue. I believe that one must abandon all previously held notions of understanding and follow logic to find "truth". In this pursuit, logic (with the help of science) leads to the statement that "life is meaningless". When this stage of the journey is reached, most abandon the pursuit and force themselves to think of it no more (since the unmoving forces of Fear and Pain oppose the journey). Many will also assume that was the end of the journey.

However, the more I pursue these thoughts, the more understanding I seem to have. I have not (yet) ceased this journey of continuous hopelessness. And I refuse to do so, simply because others tell me that I must abandon it to achieve "happiness". I don't live my life based on the principles of hedonism. If pursuing logic causes me lifelong misery, then so be it. Since, in the end, none of it matters anyway.

I am in my early 20s, not too much younger than you, I suspect.

 

[SillySapienne]

Why do you wake up in the morning, what motivates you to not kill yourself, Mr. Time?

 

[Zarathustra]

Perhaps it was your weakness (not strength) which made you reluctant to continue down the path of unforgiving, merciless "logic" and "reason"? It is a painful path that most are reluctant and unable to pursue. I believe that one must abandon all previously held notions of understanding and follow logic to find "truth". In this pursuit, logic (with the help of science) leads to the statement that "life is meaningless". When this stage of the journey is reached, most abandon the pursuit and force themselves to think of it no more (since the unmoving forces of Fear and Pain oppose the journey). Many will also assume that was the end of the journey.

However, the more I pursue these thoughts, the more understanding I seem to have. I have not (yet) ceased this journey of continuous hopelessness. And I refuse to do so, simply because others tell me that I must abandon it to achieve "happiness". I don't live my life based on the principles of hedonism. If pursuing logic causes me lifelong misery, then so be it. Since, in the end, none of it matters anyway.

I am in my early 20s, not too much younger than you, I suspect.

Yeah, I was in my early 20s when I did the exact same thing.

Trust me, it's not the end of the road.

What you should do is read philosophy, cuz science has no answers to these issues.

Do you know what the root of the word "logic" is?

It's logos, which, in Greek, simply means "word".

That's all logic is: words, and a system of grammar.

Read about Wittgenstein's idea of the language game.

Also read about the idea of metanarratives.

You are simply caught up in a particular language game, a particular metanarrative.

There is not necessarily any inherent truth to this particular game or narrative.

I am very familiar with your reluctance to leave this particular narrative, as it feels very true to you at this moment.

I felt the exact same way, about almost the exact same narrative.

Trust me, it's not the only way of looking at the world, and, if you learn to expand your language game beyond this current nihilistic one, you will look back on this period of your life as just that: a period.

"Logic" and "reason" don't inherently lead to the conclusion that life is meaningless.

Your current "logic", or language game, has led to that conclusion.

 

[SillySapienne]

Perhaps it was your weakness (not strength) which made you reluctant to continue down the path of unforgiving, merciless "logic" and "reason"? It is a painful path that most are reluctant and unable to pursue. I believe that one must abandon all previously held notions of understanding and follow logic to find "truth". In this pursuit, logic (with the help of science) leads to the statement that "life is meaningless". When this stage of the journey is reached, most abandon the pursuit and force themselves to think of it no more (since the unmoving forces of Fear and Pain oppose the journey). Many will also assume that was the end of the journey.

However, the more I pursue these thoughts, the more understanding I seem to have. I have not (yet) ceased this journey of continuous hopelessness. And I refuse to do so, simply because others tell me that I must abandon it to achieve "happiness". I don't live my life based on the principles of hedonism. If pursuing logic causes me lifelong misery, then so be it. Since, in the end, none of it matters anyway.

I am in my early 20s, not too much younger than you, I suspect.

You are young, so very young.

And, you sound a lot like my father, who is now deceased, he died a miserable man.

I, however, have been immensely fortunate to witness his death/dying process, and to work with an elderly women aged 85 with dementia who, on a daily basis tells me, "It's hell to get old", "never get old, it's awful". :/

Well, today is the youngest you'll ever be, and today you are capable of stuff that in the future you most definitely will not be.

You have your HEALTH, you have your INTELLIGENCE, and to some extent, you have your FREEDOM.

Shame on you, hell, not you, shame on us, who neglect to cherish being healthy, capable, and free to *be*.

I am a proponent of one having the rational choice to live or to die.

So, if you do, in fact, choose to live, make it worth it.

Do/pursue the things that make you happy!

Find your passion, whatever it may be, and follow it, whole-heartedly.

What do you stand to gain from such *persistent* misery?

Why do you spend your *precious* time posting on this social forum?

Somewhere, deep inside, there is a desire to connect, that's the reading I get from your last couple of posts.

Honestly, what makes you happy?

 

[SillySapienne]

We are social animals, it is inherent to our evolution and biology as well as our biological imperatives.

Every human being has the capacity to feel *lonely*.

Either by being isolated or feeling alienated from others.

I am not going to discuss the joys of solitude, because that is a whole other discussion for another time, for another thread.

But...

I will say this, which is, there exists nobody on this world so vile, so ugly as to not be considered by someone, lovable.

That means that everyone is capable of both receiving and giving love.

You might be different than most, that's okay, but you are still human.

Embrace your humanity, trust me, it's fun!

 

[Mr.Time]

Yeah, I was in my early 20s when I did the exact same thing.

Trust me, it's not the end of the road.

What you should do is read philosophy, cuz science has no answers to these issues.

Do you know what the root of the word "logic" is?

It's logos, which, in Greek, simply means "word".

That's all logic is: words, and a system of grammar.

Read about Wittgenstein's idea of the language game.

Also read about the idea of metanarratives.

You are simply caught up in a particular language game, a particular metanarrative.

There is not necessarily any inherent truth to this particular game or narrative.

I am very familiar with your reluctance to leave this particular narrative, as it feels very true to you at this moment.

I felt the exact same way, about almost the exact same narrative.

Trust me, it's not the only way of looking at the world, and, if you learn to expand your language game beyond this current nihilistic one, you will look back on this period of your life as just that: a period.

"Logic" and "reason" don't inherently lead to the conclusion that life is meaningless.

Your current "logic", or language game, has led to that conclusion.

Will you deny that 2+2 = 4? Or that the surrounding physical world can so precisely and accurately be defined (if not exactly understood) by physics?

By the words "logic" and "reason", I meant theoretical (but practical) constructs such as math and physics, not the simple misuse of words (that "philosophers" are so fond of using). I don't think that you can prove to me 2+2 =/= 4, however I can prove to you 2+2 = 4. Its as simple as that. As far as I understand "logic", it is the understanding of reality (the physical world) and using this understanding (and experimentation) to further develop more understanding. Words are simply a tool I use to express this very intuitive "logic" to other people. I know exactly what you mean by the "language game", but I have never fondly looked at those who play such games and call it "logic", "reason", or "philosophy".

I do my best to pursue the "truth" (understanding the actual state of the physical world). This "truth" further leads to an understanding of our existence. I don't see how this pursuit is simply a "particular game or narrative". Here, I am not going to argue about the "inherent truth" discovered through "logic" (since I don't see how 2+2 =/= 4). However, I will admit that sometimes, I myself wonder whether 2+2 = 4 and how this could be my perception (the limitation of the human mind), just like we are not able to imagine other colors.

Anyways, I think we should get back to the topic of why ENFPs+INTJs is a disaster, not argue (or converse) about philosophy or the meaning of existence.

 

[SillySapienne]

^ You sound like a sensor, no offense, but you do.

I've met one theoretical mathematician, and he was RIDICULOUSLY BRILLIANT, and...

HAPPY, TOO!!!

Also, I've read quite a bit of Rudy Rucker, Rudy Rucker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^He seems like one happy and unique bloke, too!!!

I'm putting something down, here, not sure if you're able or willing to pick it up, though.