[MBTI General] Thinking vs Feeling...a false dichotomy?

[SillySapienne]

Feeling my way through calculus was a lot of fun!!! The chain rule makes me feel elated.

I felt my way through high school.

Geometry made me feel all warm and fuzzy, whereas having to read The Grapes of Wrath made me get all :steam:!!!

Statistics *really* hurt(s) my feelings. We did not, and do not, get along!!!

Probability, what a foolish construct, anything is possible when you believe in love!!!!

Words are so stupid, like they actually mean anything. :rolli:

I prefer gargling out incoherent, emphatic grunts, and oomphs!!!

Things, objects, ideas... all meaningless.

Screw logical coherence and consistency.

All I care about is

 

[Amargith]

You go girl!

 

[SillySapienne]

You go girl!

My head hurts, something is going on, it, hmm, involves connecting current and past data and constructing/synthesizing, um, *gasp*, thoughts?

Could it really be, could I really be thinking?!?!?

uch:

My brain hurts, and it feels stifled, my ovaries will not be denied!!!

I'm sad!!!

I'm frustrated!!!

Lies, I am confused, I am happy!!!

Wait, who am I?

What does all of this mean?!!?!?

 

[Provoker]

Woah now, slow down. Do you want to discuss MBTI theory or conspiracy theory?

There are no conspiracies..just successful and unsuccessful plans. But no, I am not necessarily saying this was deliberately planned, these ideas and beliefs are eched into our minds contingent on history, time, society, culture, etc. For example, not to get too off track, but I'd argue that many of the values of the wealthy class are absorbed by the working class which go directly against their class interest. (Incidentally, if you want to learn more about this read Antonio Gramsci's Prison Notebooks). Now, that's not to say that each wealthy person deliberately brainwashes others. I am arguing that the structure of the system produces these outcomes and makes people think certain things and behave in certain ways.

The overall goal of making this point in the original post was to provide insight into causation, but perhaps that is better left for another thread since we still seem to be debating the phenomena at hand (the outcome--sometimes called dependent variable) in this thread.

 

[SillySapienne]

Five star thread, why?

Well, because I felt like it, of course!

(k, I'll stop now)

 

[Provoker]

I feel, therefore I am.

Thoughts, what are these thoughts that you speak of?

I'll bite. This "I feel" that you take to be an immediate and definitive certainty is questionable. Afterall, a feeling comes when "it" wants not when "I" want. "I" or in this case "you" probably have very little say over the matter. In a given environment, things may be going on which stimulate your senses causing a physiological reaction which gets transmitted to your nerves and brain and produces "feeling". But how can you be so sure that "you" are the one feeling and not something or someone else? And secondly, given this dubious assumption of something you take to be true, is that sufficient evidence for your existence?

 

[SillySapienne]

I'm kidding, you numbskull.

Thinkers can, (ironically), be so dense, sometimes!!!

 

[Jack Flak]

I'm kidding, you numbskull.

Thinkers can, (ironically), be so dense, sometimes!!!

 

[SillySapienne]

And, you know what, I'll bite as well!!!

Even though thinking is part of our human experience, experience in and of itself is ultimately felt.

The fact that we understand that we are feeling makes us conscious, the fact that we can feel means that we are in fact alive.

(If that makes sense).

 

[Amargith]

And, you know what, I'll bite as well!!!

Even though thinking is part of our human experience, experience in and of itself is ultimately felt.

The fact that we understand that we are feeling makes us conscious, the fact that we can feel means that we are in fact alive.

(If that makes sense).

Perfect sense even

 

[Erudur]

...supposedly thinking types take advice more detachedly, while feeling types take advice more personally.

That seems generally consistent with my observations.

 

[SillySapienne]

^ Ha!!!

My F friends actually *appreciate* advice given whereas my T friends feel all huffy, puffy, and, yes, offended by it, as if they, *shock horror* could actually be in need of advice, as if they don't already know, or *think* they know all there is to know.

Ts are more prone to exhibit intellectual rigidity and elitism, imo.

Fs or perhaps FPs are more open to criticism, I believe, but..heh, I am probably being biased here.

 

[Amargith]

LOL, well you have a point, but maybe 'critiscism' isn't the right word. Stick to 'advice'. I think F's maybe more likely to take advice under consideration if it was formulated correctly and show their appreciation for said advice, whereas critiscism seems to be better digested by T's who are actually able to use it if they think it has value. The question is really whether or not T's will fess up to actually finding your criticism usefull. That depends on the T, IMHE

 

[digesthisickness]

^ Ha!!!

My F friends actually *appreciate* advice given whereas my T friends feel all huffy, puffy, and, yes, offended by it, as if they, *shock horror* could actually be in need of advice, as if they don't already know, or *think* they know all there is to know.

speaking for myself, but definitely as a T, you couldn't be more wrong about our reasoning.

 

[SillySapienne]

When push comes to shove, an overall highly intelligent person, at least in my books, is someone who understands a lot of things well, which includes understanding their own feelings as well as the feelings of others.

Thoughts, oftentimes, evoke feelings and feelings, oftentimes, evoke thoughts. To be honest, I cannot imagine any other way of processing experience.

I can say this though, not all thoughts evoke or stem from feelings, whereas *all* feelings stem from and evoke thoughts.

 

[digesthisickness]

When push comes to shove, an overall highly intelligent person, at least in my books, is someone who understands a lot of things well, which includes understanding their own feelings as well as the feelings of others.

Thoughts, oftentimes, evoke feelings and feelings, oftentimes, evoke thoughts. To be honest, I cannot imagine any other way of processing experience.

I can say this though, not all thoughts evoke or stem from feelings, whereas *all* feelings stem from and evoke thoughts.

who is the "someone" you're referring to in this post?

are you just stating a random belief for the fun of it, or are you comparing Ts and Fs?

 

[SillySapienne]

Someone, in this context, refers to whom I believe to be "an overall highly intelligent person".

 

[Erudur]

Everything below is way too late. I can't keep up with these threads but find the conversation fascinating.

...
(As an F who is commonly called "Ev-bot" because I'm so obsessed with logic, this has always been a big qualm I've had with the system.)
...
(I'm using this as an example because it's the situation I'm in. I call myself INFJ, but I hate the fact that people box me into the non-logical category. In fact, I'm more logical than almost anyone I've known besides my INTP father.)...

Based on a few conversations around here, I'm beginning to think that people who place a high value on logic (not all do) probably feel like they are more logical than most others.

Drawing an observation from the Jack Flak / Evan dialogue - I see less of a thinking / feeling difference than I see Evan more often taking offense at JFs debate style but in turn presenting arguments less combatively (except when offended), and JF taking less offense at Evan's or others debate style but also more off the cuff in debating with zingers that may cause offense.

Evan, I think JF meant less offense than was communicated.

JF, I think you missed some of Es logic regarding function order. To the degree that INTJs and INFJs share the dominant Ni, I think I track with E in this conversation. Es contention that his reversed secondary and tertiary order for Fe and Ti seems logical to me. I'd have to say that I share similar Ni characteristics with other INFJs, even though those INFJs probably have secondary Fe and tertiary Ti....i.e. they are more "feely."

 

[digesthisickness]

Someone, in this context, refers to whom I believe to be "an overall highly intelligent person".

so, it was just a random statement for the fun of it then? you weren't trying to make a point about the T vs. F dichotomy?

 

[Erudur]

Regarding T and F as it relates to NTs and NFs, what do you think about this conjecture:

NFs are more easily offended.

NTs are more stubborn.

I kind of like the advice/criticism commentary. But I don't think NTs are closed to advice per se. They are more likely to receive criticism the same way as they do advice. An NT will learn from either if it makes it past any potential stubborn opposition. But an NT won't quickly take offense from criticism, they'll just reject it.

Where NFs, when presented with advice that comes in, shall we say, an attractive package are more likely than NTs to consider that advice. Criticism (which can really be called advice in a stinky package) may be extremely constructive for an NF, but the odor of the package will greatly minimize an NFs ability to receive it.