Aspergers vs. Narcissism

[FemMecha]

It seems like a number of posters have had experience dealing with both issues, so I thought it would be interesting to have a thread that compared the similarities and the contrasts. One poster mentioned knowing someone with both conditions and that is what got me thinking, since I have dealt with both in life. I think there can be a lack of empathy in both ways of cognitive processing, but one is the result of hyper-focus and the other is an attachment disorder in which the concept of Self and Other has been distorted. Anyway, we'll see if an interesting discussion results...

 

[Thalassa]

I know someone who probably is a rather mild case of NPD (I really don't think he's severe because he seems to WANT to connect) as a result of an emotionally and psychologically abusive mother who probably is Borderline.

He asked me once if I thought he had Asperger's. Food for thought.

However, bipolar also runs in his family so what if it is mild Asperger's? "I really feel nothing. I stop emoting. Then I regret it." It has all the features of narcissism (or histrionic) with the over-emphasis on appearance of self and appearance of partners and delusions of sophistication, success, and wealth. A little too strongly desiring external perfection to validate self.

I've read academic articles that state a lot of people with Asperger's/autism spectrum actually have bipolar spectrum running in their family.

Aspies seem like they're oblivious, and narcissists seem like they don't care. That's what I think the difference is.

And would it be impossible for someone to have traits of both? I don't think so, especially if the Asperger's were mild enough.

My niece has Asperger's syndrome, diagnosed and in therapy, but she's too young for me to give much anecdotal evidence about her, other than her developmental behavior.

P.S. I love the person I'm talking about, I'm not talking shit, and I have cyclothymia myself, I'm on the bipolar spectrum, so I'm not mocking him...I am just absolutely baffled by him (ofc never seen a therapist, usually totally baffling people won't) and he is one of the first people who made me realize that Aspies and narcissists may have something in common, but he's not the only one.

 

[tinker683]

<--- Aspie

I'm interested to see how this thread develops too

 

[cafe]

I have two high functioning autistic sons, both teenagers. One has some traits I would consider narcissistic the other seems not to. It might not be narcissism in the one son, but he seems to think like the kind of super villain who wants to remake the world for its own good because humanity is too stupid and mean to be trusted with its own welfare. He has empathy, he just isn't very interested in the opinions of those he deems foolish humans. If you're not in the foolish category, he can be interested in your opinion if its about one of his interests and in those cases, he can be extremely gullible.

FWIW, my super villain boy was affectionate as a little guy. He used to run and jump into my arms after school long after he was really too big for me to be picking up. The fact that he's my baby boy and was a mama's boy probably has plenty to do with his issues. He used to almost have a tractor beam for attracting women and girls to baby him and for a long time it even included his sisters. Now that he's all gawky he gets a lot less than that.

 

[swordpath]

I have two high functioning autistic sons, both teenagers. One has some traits I would consider narcissistic the other seems not to. It might not be narcissism in the one son, but he seems to think like the kind of super villain who wants to remake the world for its own good because humanity is too stupid and mean to be trusted with its own welfare. He has empathy, he just isn't very interested in the opinions of those he deems foolish humans. If you're not in the foolish category, he can be interested in your opinion if its about one of his interests and in those cases, he can be extremely gullible.

FWIW, my super villain boy was affectionate as a little guy. He used to run and jump into my arms after school long after he was really too big for me to be picking up. The fact that he's my baby boy and was a mama's boy probably has plenty to do with his issues. He used to almost have a tractor beam for attracting women and girls to baby him and for a long time it even included his sisters. Now that he's all gawky he gets a lot less than that.

This sounds like me.

 

[Thalassa]

[MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION]

The reason why I say the Asperger's would probably have to be mild in someone who is also an actual narcissist, is because narcissists are highly manipulative and good at getting what they want. They tend to be good looking people, or at least believe they are because they put so much effort into grooming themselves. Of course not all narcissism is based around physical beauty, you can have a more power-money-status obsessed narcissist who simply believes he (rarely she in these cases, but look at Ayn Rand, not exactly a supermodel to put it mildly, and I think NPD is the only other possibility for her if she wasn't outright sociopathic) deserves good looking partners, or is "beautiful by proxy" believing himself (or herself) to rather falsely be one of the beautiful people (CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch is a good example of this).

I think mild narcissists can be very lovey-dovey, even obsessive, if they feel a need to manipulate you or are so attached to you for their narcissistic supply of attention. They share traits of all the cluster Bs this way, of having poor relationship boundaries, and will create a kind of closeness or intimacy that may confuse a person that they otherwise push away with emotional cruelty or selfishness, or scare a person away who wants more space.

I have a hard time thinking that someone who was a severe Aspie could muster enough social intelligence to be that manipulative.

Not saying your son is manipulative, in fact I don't see any evidence of it in what you're saying.

Oh yeah, another important thing that narcissists and Aspie has in common is dealing very poorly with rejection or cruelty dealt toward themselves despite their obliviousness to the feelings of others or actual lack of empathy.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well, some people seem to think being an introverted NT is the same thing as having Aspergers.

 

[Thalassa]

Well, some people seem to think being an introverted NT is the same thing as having Aspergers.

Noooo...actually it's just that emotions and making decisions mostly based on ethics and relationships aren't the same thing, and Aspies can become very out of control of their emotions (not unlike a person with bipolar disorder and I tend to wonder if this is why they both run in the same families, something to do with heightened sensitivity and poor conscious control of impulses) ...all NTs aren't Aspies, but yes they can be. ISxJs are apparently likely to be Aspies.

I mean think about Si. What Si really is.

WHAT IT REALLY IS.

 

[prplchknz]

Noooo...actually it's just that emotions and making decisions mostly based on ethics and relationships aren't the same thing, and Aspies can become very out of control of their emotions (not unlike a person with bipolar disorder and I tend to wonder if this is why they both run in the same families, something to do with heightened sensitivity and poor conscious control of impulses) ...all NTs aren't Aspies, but yes they can be. ISxJs are apparently likely to be Aspies.

I mean think about Si. What Si really is.

WHAT IT REALLY IS.

maybe that's why i feel aspieish at times, because I either have schizoaffective or bipolar 1, depends on the doctor and how well i'm functioning when I see them what they say.

 

[Thalassa]

maybe that's why i feel aspieish at times, because I either have schizoaffective or bipolar 1, depends on the doctor and how well i'm functioning when I see them what they say.

Yeah my mother has noticed links between my childhood behavior and my niece. I would just freak out easily, my mom said I was a nervous sensitive child, and I would scream my head off if something displeased me, I remember my sisters trashing my room one time when I was about 4 and going on a rampage.

My niece though just...much more apparent...just...banging her head ...screaming constantly for no reason...she's better now, but when she was a toddler she pretty much exhausted my family.

My mom also thinks I'm "too smart" to be on the bipolar spectrum (I'm cyclothymic, highly functioning, I don't hallucinate or have major delusions in the way my mother likes to believe what mental illness is, but cyclothymic basically means mood swingy in the extreme without actual fits of full-blown mania).

I've tried to explain to her that "the fine line between genius and insanity" and "artistic temperament" in ye olden days was usually describing people who had bipolar disorder, before people called it that. It has nothing to do with smart.

But yes, people more naturally expect aspies to be smart or good at math or something, and people with bipolar disorder to be more artistic or openly eccentric, and perhaps even have imaginary friends.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Noooo...actually it's just that emotions and making decisions mostly based on ethics and relationships aren't the same thing, and Aspies can become very out of control of their emotions (not unlike a person with bipolar disorder and I tend to wonder if this is why they both run in the same families, something to do with heightened sensitivity and poor conscious control of impulses) ...all NTs aren't Aspies, but yes they can be. ISxJs are apparently likely to be Aspies.

I mean think about Si. What Si really is.

WHAT IT REALLY IS.

Cool. This is a thread about real psychology, not pop psychology.

I think the reason why I brought this up is because, in college, when I was younger, more depressed , and more socially awkward, occasionally I would be subject to a five second "Asperger's" diagnosis. None of these people were professional psychologists, and appear to have thought of it as being synonymous with "socially awkward nerdy guy." That's really not what it means.

Asperger's is partially about being really literal, I believe. (which is what you mean about Si, correct?)

Sometimes, it almost seems like I'm too good at understanding the behavior of others. I don't like what I find, so I'll kind of push it to the back of my mind, and then later, I'll discover I was right about that person/situation (moral, listen to my gut more).

I definitely have a few things wrong with me, but Asperger's does not appear to be one of them. Professional psychiatrists agree.

 

[cafe]

Well, some people seem to think being an introverted NT is the same thing as having Aspergers.

The other fun thing is that some people think that autistic is the same as mentally handicapped. My higher functioning son's classmates cheer for him in P.E. class whenever he does anything. Only the guys and they seem to be sincere. His IQ is not in any way negatively effected by the autism, so it's pretty insulting.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

^ I'm sure the way it's presented in the media doesn't help.

But yeah, people are shockingly ignorant all around when it comes to mental health issues. Fortunately, this seems to be improving.

 

[prplchknz]

^ I'm sure the way it's presented in the media doesn't help.

But yeah, people are shockingly ignorant all around when it comes to mental health issues. Fortunately, this seems to be improving.

Yeah but still, I wouldn't go to a potential employer and say I have mental health issues.

 

[Thalassa]

Cool. This is a thread about real psychology, not pop psychology.

I think the reason why I brought this up is because, in college, when I was younger, more depressed , and more socially awkward, occasionally I would be subject to a five second "Asperger's" diagnosis. None of these people were professional psychologists, and appear to have thought of it as being synonymous with "socially awkward nerdy guy." That's really not what it means.

Asperger's is partially about being really literal, I believe. (which is what you mean about Si, correct?)

No Si is not necessarily about being literal, but Si has an intense intellectual focus on delving deeply and intricately into one subject. Depth and detail over breadth and speculation, see? And people with Asperger's are often impressively good with miniscule facts and detail, or knowing everything (including things most people wouldn't care about) about an obsessive hobby, say even something as seemingly "bland" as trains.

Si also loves for things to be a particular sensory way, they're very comforted by the sensory familiarity, making the too low a little higher and the two high a little lower, to their subjective preference. Aspies - and indeed people with full blown autism - may be excruciatingly sensitive to lights, sounds, and fabrics, even doing things like rubbing a particular blanket or piece of cloth on their face. My niece used to do this and go "soft soft soft" when she was about two or three and it made her very happy.

Sometimes, it almost seems like I'm too good at understanding the behavior of others. I don't like what I find, so I'll kind of push it to the back of my mind, and then later, I'll discover I was right about that person/situation (moral, listen to my gut more).

I definitely have a few things wrong with me, but Asperger's does not appear to be one of them. Professional psychiatrists agree.

Ok. Good for you.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

No Si is not necessarily about being literal, but Si has an intense intellectual focus on delving deeply and intricately into one subject. Depth and detail over breadth and speculation, see? And people with Asperger's are often impressively good with miniscule facts and detail, or knowing everything (including things most people wouldn't care about) about an obsessive hobby, say even something as seemingly "bland" as trains.

Si also loves for things to be a particular sensory way, they're very comforted by the sensory familiarity, making the too low a little higher and the two high a little lower, to their subjective preference. Aspies - and indeed people with full blown autism - may be excruciatingly sensitive to lights, sounds, and fabrics, even doing things like rubbing a particular blanket or piece of cloth on their face. My niece used to do this and go "soft soft soft" when she was about two or three and it made her very happy.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. Interesting point. Those are all symptoms I've read about, and that does sound kind of Si. I never thought of the first aspect as Si before, interesting. I've associated it more with second aspect you mentioned.

Ok. Good for you.

LOL. Sorry. The introverted NT = Aspie thing really annoys me, so I wanted hijack this thread for a little bit to get on my soapbox. You may now return to the regularly scheduled discussion.

 

[Thalassa]

Yeah but still, I wouldn't go to a potential employer and say I have mental health issues.

I hardly ever tell anyone at all, unless they're personal contacts or friends, because I tend to be so highly functioning, and even in some cases exceptional (I'm often trusted with responsibilities et al), that telling people would be counterproductive, it would cause them to have unnecessary fears about me; some people don't even believe me when I do tell them, like I've actually had people tell me not to take my medication, because apparently those doctors were wrong about me.

But hey...you know what? I don't want full blown mania, and people who are cyclothymic can eventually become full blown manic if they are treated early enough...and my meds keep this from happening. It keeps there from being a risk that I'm just going to totally go absolutely batshit and ruin my own life by stealing some cars and going on a shopping spree with other people's credit cards, and all those delightfully romanticized (but truthfully dangerous) things people can do while in full blown mania. It's not all fun and games.

Of course you already know this. I also don't like being depressed. Apparently cyclothymics seek treatment while in a very depressed phase, and indeed, this is what I did. I wasn't even diagnosed as being on the bipolar spectrum at first, but as simply having clinical depression.

However apparently my grandiose charm and risk-taking convinced psychologists otherwise eventually (I also had pressured speech), because several personality disorders - such as borderline and histrionic - were suggested for me early on, but my last two long-term doctors have confirmed that it's only a mood disorder, and that I'm actually very "lucky" and too functional to ever qualify for SSI.

Dammit.

*just kidding*

 

[The Ü™]

Anyone who is slightly shy or introverted is diagnosed with Asperger's now, and anyone who has selfish tendencies than others is diagnosed with narcissism. It's hard to take diagnostics seriously anymore. And it's an SJ mindset to diagnose, or put labels on things that deviate from the "norm," and then medicate them into submission. I don't think either "disorder" exists anymore than ADD/ADHD exists.

 

[prplchknz]

I have not been diagnosed with aspbergers or autism, to be being very literal,social skills,ecceentric, but i don't have repetive behaviors,have a hard time communicating, and coordination problems . I'd need to read up on the rest to say if I relate to any others. my parents went and took me to get diagnosed when i was in preschool, this of course was in the 80s and they said that I had developmental delays (I wasn't really talking, and didn't have the stereotypical repetitive behavior, but they said I was neurotypical, but I was just on the border)

I'm not claiming to have it, my point is I was extremely shy and introverted as a child, and I've always been literal to the point it gets me trouble in social situations, Of course I also have another dx that could explain these things as well.

just find it interesting, that I had developmental delays, dxed with written expressive disorder, schizoaffective/bipolar 1 and wonder how much those symptoms can overlap/llook like autistic spectrum disorder. my problems with communication come from processing what's going on and being able to effectivly express myself in situations. Of course I don't know. and the processing isn't so much I can't its just at times i'll repeat what is said out loud because i hear it but i don't process it. so probably not the same thing. I'm neurotypical obviously.

I don't know why I'm posting this, just bored and want to talk about me/contribute without knowing a damn thing.

 

[Society]

but one is the result of hyper-focus and the other is an attachment disorder in which the concept of Self and Other has been distorted.

what's the relationship between aspergers and hyper-focus?
FYI - i have hyper-focus (the anti-ADHD), but i severely doubt i have aspergers...