[MBTI General] F vs T: Cultural Value

[disregard]

Lol, athenian has a sense of humor. Fucking awesome.

You're alright in my book.

 

[phoenix13]

Wow guys... Feelers don't have a monopoly on emotion. However, one thing for Thinkers to keep in mind is that the emotions of a T are not equal to the emotions of an F in development. Where do I get this from? here: The 5 Levels of the Feeling Function: a Phenomenological Description [DISCLAIMER: I don't totally agree with it, but I think there's something to the concept of a development of emotion and use of the Feeling function]

Having said that, I couldn't care less what people think about the value of F and T OBJECTIVELY. It's just too lame for one to argue one over the other… you obviously need both equally (in a society). I wanted to explore their SUBJECTIVE value; and specifically the value culture places on one versus the other.

 

[phoenix13]

For example, I believe American culture tends to favor Thinking in deliberations, even when Feeling is appropriate. A perverted case of this is US foreign policy in Iraq. Among many other things, Bush & friends forgot to take into account the Iraqis as people entrenched in a very different culture. I think that people who want us all to get along and share our feelings, etc. are seen as “soft,” obnoxious, and kind of lame.

For those who like to play with evolutionary theories (which I personally find waaayyyyy overdone… but I’m doing it anyway), I’d say the above attitude significantly decreases our fitness as a society by causing stress and disunity. For example, it is not as acceptable for an American male (who isn’t gay) to be expressive as it is for a female. This potentially harms the psyche of male Feelers and to a certain extent, female Thinkers. As for disunity, nothing kills relations like misunderstandings. You can use Thinking to deal with people to a certain extent, but empathy is FAR more efficient, accurate, and effective a method of understanding another person’s perspective, needs, motivations, etc.

 

[Badlands]

The Bush administration did not make a logical decision to go into the war. Logic as conventionally known would have told them it was absolutely retarded to even consider it. It was an emotional decision influenced by factors I can't even try to speculate in full, but probably included avenging his dad and (if the intelligence was actually thought to be real) the US's weird ego thing about nukes.

As for nozflubber, feeling will always be necessary in maintaining our society. All logic leads back to an emotional root. Why is this society you speak of worth preserving? Because your FEELINGS said it was. You can divert the answer as much as you like, but in the end, it all comes back to the people and posessions you love. Logic is simply a way to express feelings that is eternally consistent. Logic needs feelings, and humanity needs logic to remain human, so in essence they are one huge interconnected entity. Can't live without either.

 

[alcea rosea]

Lol, athenian has a sense of humor. Fucking awesome.

I really hope Athenian was joking.

 

[Electric]

Being surrounded by doctors and scientists 8 hours a day 5 days a week, I have a vague feeling that Ts are both regarded as and regard themselves as superior (not personally) to Fs. Do you in your respective countries and social circles share this experience, and why do you think that is/isn't? (Note: I'm not asking which is "better", 'cause that's outrageously lame.)

I regard myself as equal to Fs. However, I cherish more my ingenuity to save myself out of tough situations rather than my ingenuity to appreciate a doomed and possibly painful one.

 

[disregard]

I really hope Athenian was joking.

She put white <joke> </joke> tags around it.

I was about to bite some heads off until I highlighted her words.

 

[Anon722]

Hmmm... I don't think so...

Just put a T in a relaxed, populous and fun environment and you'll get the perfect specimen of an "OoPMF" or... "Out of place mother..." You surelly have guessed the rest.

 

[Anon722]

<joke>

You're thinking of Fi, not Fe. Fi is indeed the source of those sorts of emotions that weaken society and stymie the mind. Fe is the higher, sentient kind of emotion, because it is placed on maintaining the welfare of an entire social entity, which is what humanity now functions as, rather than an individual. Without it, we wouldn't have the capacity to assess actions against their impact on the things that hold society/groups together in general, rather than against the things that hold together the systems that it is composed of. Fe at its best creates ethical norms for people that are beneficial to the whole, and uses the sense of guilt and shame we all feel as a way of inducing us to contribute to a larger entity, and ensuring the prosperity of societies.

Fi, on the other hand, is destructive and subversive. It encourages selfish, irrational values that are not even consistent with themselves. It often runs counter to the positive Fe that is beneficial, pushing things closer to destruction when it has its way. It cannot be reasoned or negotiated with, and makes its user as dangerous and unpredictable as a wild animal. Bubbling over with passion one moment, seething with hate the next, and yet you never notice any change in their demeanor. The corruptions/neuroses of every other function come when this function pollutes them. It is atavistic and wishes to return us to a more primitive and arbitrary reality without language, thought, or a true sense of justice.

Just letting you know that you're really only opposed to FP's, not FJ's.

</joke>

Yeah... We "I"s are just selfish bastards.

 

[Kiddo]

Yeah... We "I"s are just selfish bastards.

Not selfish, just motivated by self interests. Passion for individual rights is the core of Fi, and as such it is the preservation mechanism of the ego. Whereas Fe found more dominantly in INFJs and ENFJs is the altruistic element, the superego mechanism.

 

[heart]

Not selfish, just motivated by self interests. Passion for individual rights is the core of Fi, and as such it is the preservation mechanism of the ego. Whereas Fe found more dominantly in INFJs and ENFJs is the altruistic element, the superego mechanism.

This is what Jung as to say about Fi and the ego:

"So long as the ego feels subordinate to the unconscious subject, and the feeling is aware of something higher and mightier than the ego, the type (Fi-Introverted Feeling) is normal. Although the thinking type is archaic, its reductive tendencies help to compensate the occasional fits of trying to exalt the ego of the subject." P. 249-50, The Portable Jung.

 

[Kiddo]

This is what Jung as to say about Fi and the ego:

I'm sorry I don't speak Jung. Would you mind translating it for me? It sounds to me like as long as the individual believes in something greater than their self interests, then they will not be dominated by their Fi. What would that something higher be? The greater good? God? The innate goodness in humanity?

 

[heart]

It says that as long as the person holds up some higher purpose than themselves then their Fi will not be used to glorify their own ego, but rather the higher purpose.

Fi will also express different as Third function than it will as Dom function, just as Te in the INFP is different than it is as dom function.

 

[Kiddo]

It says that as long as the person holds up some higher purpose than themselves then their Fi will not be used to glorify their own ego, but rather the higher purpose.

Fi will also express different as Third function than it will as Dom function, just as Te in the INFP is different than it is as dom function.

Of course, the Fi does find ways to serve the ego under the illusion of a higher purpose. That would be through philosophical and political philosophies which argue that the highest values are self preservation and individual rights.

 

[heart]

Of course, the Fi does find ways to serve the ego under the illusion of a higher purpose. That would be through philosophical and political philosophies which argue that the highest values are self preservation and individual rights.

Fe could be used to create control freakers paradise under the illusion of helping others. (Even when others do not desire help, but Fe needs to help!) Both have their extremes.

You seem to be trying to tie Ayn Rand type politics to ALL those who have Fi as a function in their profile. I am Fi dom and I have no attraction to Ayn Rand. I find her ideas an anathema .

All Dom functions can be said to be Ego Orientating:

Fe: What network of obligations am I bound into? How will this affect or define my relationships with other people?

Fi: What is alive here and what are its needs, and what does unconditional moral principle call upon me to do about it? What will make my soul pure?

Introverted Feeling has different aspects depending on where it is in the function ranking, In INTJ it is the child function and will express with more self interest, just as with me, Si will express in a much more self interested way than in say an ISFJ:

Introverted Feeling

When dealing with a dominant function, I always find it most helpful to read Jung himself:

The Psychological Types by Carl Jung

 

[Kiddo]

You seem to be trying to tie Ayn Rand type politics to ALL those who have Fi as a function in their profile. I am Fi dom and I have no attraction to Ayn Rand. I find her ideas an anathema .

Oh you caught me. Ayn Rand was an INTJ and I do believe that her philosophy originated from an extreme form of Fi. I'm sure there are also some communistic philosophies that are born from Fe, but the divide between individualism and collectivism seems most evident in comparison of extreme Fi/Fe values.

 

[heart]

Oh you caught me. Ayn Rand was an INTJ and I do believe that her philosophy originated from an extreme form of Fi. I'm sure there are also some communistic philosophies that are born from Fe, but the divide between individualism and collectivism seems most evident in comparison of extreme Fi/Fe values.

There is more going on with INTJ than just Fi, but again, I stress that Fi will have a different tone and flavor as 3rd function than as 1st or 2nd function. You seem to be overlooking this.

I cannot agree about a gulf always between Fe and Fi. Me and my husband totally agree on political matters. He's INFJ. Me and my ISFP friend cannot see eye to eye on politics and have to refrain from discussing the topic.

 

[alcea rosea]

She put white <joke> </joke> tags around it.

I was about to bite some heads off until I highlighted her words.

Yes, but there are jokes and then there are "jokes".