Ni vs Fi - NiFe vs FiNe

[Meowcat]

Hey all, I tried to look for threads on this issue but didn't find any other than some type threads.

So how do you differentiate between FiNe vs NiFe? Especially if in a grip of either of these functions/function combos?

I figured both Fi with Intuition and Ni with Feeling are focused on the inner life/inner emotions/inner psychology, but in a different way yeah?

I'm all ears for any input, thanks.

 

[Lexicon]

(I’ll try to come back later & offer something more constructive, but for now, some levity)

 

[Meowcat]

*BIG BUMP*

 

[Andy]

Hey all, I tried to look for threads on this issue but didn't find any other than some type threads.

So how do you differentiate between FiNe vs NiFe? Especially if in a grip of either of these functions/function combos?

I figured both Fi with Intuition and Ni with Feeling are focused on the inner life/inner emotions/inner psychology, but in a different way yeah?

I'm all ears for any input, thanks.

Fi is the urge to form opinions based upon ideas of social, emotional, or moral worth.

Ne is the urge to explore and interact with the world inspired by how it relates to concepts and ideas.

Put them together and what do you get (clue - the answers not bibity-bobity-boo)? A urge to explore and interact with the world, with the results being judged by their social, moral or emotional worth. This combination is common in artists who have some message of some sort of to convey, as opposed to Fi-Se artists who are more likely to use their art to express how they feel.

Ni is the urge to review ideas and information, and is often associated with the tenancy to form mental maps of how ideas fit together and plan ahead. Ni is concerned with potential rather than certainty, which is the realm of Si.

Fe is the urge to act upon practical necessities seen from a social view point. Te is similar, but more logistical.

Put them together and what do you get (clue - still not the words from an old fashioned musical)? The urge to assess the current social situation, identify problems and opportunities, and then act upon them. When somebody says "That's terrible - why doesn't somebody do something about it?" it's usually someone with Ji-Fe who turns out to be the somebody in question.

 

[Meowcat]

Fi is the urge to form opinions based upon ideas of social, emotional, or moral worth.

Ne is the urge to explore and interact with the world inspired by how it relates to concepts and ideas.

Put them together and what do you get (clue - the answers not bibity-bobity-boo)? A urge to explore and interact with the world, with the results being judged by their social, moral or emotional worth. This combination is common in artists who have some message of some sort of to convey, as opposed to Fi-Se artists who are more likely to use their art to express how they feel.

Ni is the urge to review ideas and information, and is often associated with the tenancy to form mental maps of how ideas fit together and plan ahead. Ni is concerned with potential rather than certainty, which is the realm of Si.

Fe is the urge to act upon practical necessities seen from a social view point. Te is similar, but more logistical.

Put them together and what do you get (clue - still not the words from an old fashioned musical)? The urge to assess the current social situation, identify problems and opportunities, and then act upon them. When somebody says "That's terrible - why doesn't somebody do something about it?" it's usually someone with Ji-Fe who turns out to be the somebody in question.

Hmm. Is it possible to be in an Ni grip *and* an Fi grip together or just plain INFx grip then?

Mine is like... there is no interaction with the outside world when I am in it. I just feel very introverted and very focused into my internals. And then I get to form some new "big picture" understanding of events, mental events especially, and so it's all internal, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with exploring or interacting with the world in terms of conceptual stuff.

I'm slowly passing it all though, I definitely prefer to return back to my certainty for sure. (Whether that's Si or not)

I mean I could be convinced if you say that it's Si observing the internals and then getting some Ne input about the big picture eventually, but I must repeat, that I do NOTHING about exploring the world like you described Ne do it.

The whole process of getting to the insights and big picture conceptualising of it all and whatever, it is pretty laborious. I'm not very good with anything N-intuitive.

And when I say no interaction with the outside world... I mean I can try and talk with some people to be able to have this process working better - usually they seem to be INFx types yup!! though not always, but always N types for sure and more INxx than ENxx. But the conceptualising (or attempt at conceptualising... not very good attempts by default), they are not about the interaction with the outside world.

And it's not just N-intuitive but it often includes emotions, again pretty internal ones. But it's like, I don't really think or talk about how I feel, that's the hardest really, I instead look at just emotional states "as is". Or sometimes it's what happened with other people, but again I just get to focus internally about all of it. About the events with people. Not sure if I can describe this better....


Does this sound like either NiFe or FiNe?



PS: LOL the Ji-Fe example. I had a friend who would totally do that lolololol. She wanted others to do things, she was just the one saying "That's terrible - why doesn't somebody do something about it?" or sometimes, "That's terrible - why don't YOU do something about it?" ........ The worst is, it took years for me to realise that she was contradicting herself there ha ha. I just let her be. But I did figure it out eventually, damnit! ...

 

[Meowcat]

[MENTION=8554]Andy[/MENTION] or anyone else

Thinking more about this. I would say what you described as Ni forming the mental ideas is more the end result for me, yeah. It does facilitate planning too somewhat, I noticed. It's not my usual way of planning but it helps contribute to my usual planning as far as I even plan stuff lol (I don't plan in detail, it's rare that I like to plan in detail though it happened before). It helps because it gives me a more overarching overview...like I am less short-sighted about the plans, like I have a further view of things overall. Makes me more flexible too even. Anyway... yeah the end result is nice I would say. But it's not easy, until I can get there, to the end result, I'm just, I'm just sitting on mental details. (Ignoring the outside world meanwhile.) Maybe that's also part of the Ni process though. ? Let me know.

I'm actually not sure that I see Fi if it is these opinions of worth. Though, I end up having those too sometimes. But when I get internal emotions in this whole grip, what would that be, I wonder? I mainly just try to make the mental ideas out of them too, though, eventually. I really do not make opinions of worth about the internal emotions. I either just have them "as is" or I try to process it mentally with the intuitive thingy that I said I'm not great with, so you can imagine what a mess it all is.

And also, I would say it's barely about "assess the current social situation, identify problems and opportunities, and then act upon them."

I mean... I eventually act when I return from the grip. After identifying the real problem if it was emotional, yeah. (If it isn't emotional, I don't get into the grip.) But it's barely about any social situation. It's just about my internal emotional states. Sometimes it's about other people in relation to me, but it's not about a social situation ever. I don't try to navigate those in the Fe way like you defined it above. No I'm more comfortable with a logistical approach. I don't mind it if others do the "urge to act upon practical necessities seen from a social view point", I have nothing against it, I just would plain die if I was required to do it like that.

Again... I've seen some say that Fi deals in internal emotions. But I assume you meant that they are only Fi if you do make these opinions of worth from them. I don't really touch my emotions like that. That to me seems very unnatural actually, very antithesis to how I operate. Either in grip or out of grip. In grip: I just don't touch them or I try to make the mental conceptualisation. Out of grip: I just plain control the emotions (with my normal thinking/logic) instead of making judgments of worth about them.



***

So... my question is: what are the internal emotions then?

I would also be interested if INFPs and INFJs on here chimed in about whether any of this is similar to anything they do. Not that I'd expect it to be very similar, since for me it's rather undeveloped functions running when I am in the grip.

 

[noname3788]

Did you ever ask yourself whether you're simply J or P? Organized, scheduled and prepared, or rather spontaneous, explorative and working against time?

The reason why this works at figuring out the functions is because that's how the function stacks manifest in everyday life. Fe cares about being responsible and dutiful, in order to not disappoint other people who trust them, and therefore they make sure to always meet their deadlines. Fi, on the other hand, is focused on self, and they evaluate when the individual is in the best state to take on some action (which is rarely by schedule). This causes INFP's to appear rather unorganized, unlike INFJ's.

 

[Meowcat]

Did you ever ask yourself whether you're simply J or P? Organized, scheduled and prepared, or rather spontaneous, explorative and working against time?

The reason why this works at figuring out the functions is because that's how the function stacks manifest in everyday life. Fe cares about being responsible and dutiful, in order to not disappoint other people who trust them, and therefore they make sure to always meet their deadlines. Fi, on the other hand, is focused on self, and they evaluate when the individual is in the best state to take on some action (which is rarely by schedule). This causes INFP's to appear rather unorganized, unlike INFJ's.

I'm pretty between J and P, I'm organised 50% of the time and disorganised not following a real set plan 50% of the time (or I modify it too easily). The one thing for sure tho' is, I'm never the overprepared type. But to be clear, I feel like NF only in my "grip". Not when I am my normal self. I'm not functional when in the "grip" (though it has given me some good results eventually but not during the "grip" itself...) so I can't really evaluate whether that's J or P.

I'll add I'm normally not EVER focused on self much like you described or evaluate like that, normally when I go by states (i.e. not so organised) I do not focus on that consciously like you described, it just happens, it's not so deliberate. When I go by schedule or obligation, I do focus on that consciously.

... but I think with all the "grip" stuff, it's different. This focusing on and evaluating states like you described for INFP, I noticed that can be useful sometimes, idk if I can explain that. Again I can't just consciously decide to do this, it just seems to help sometimes when I get lucky. It seems to help with making better plans sometimes. Like, it's more flexible planning or more taking into account the states when otherwise they would ruin the plan, but I'm not in the best place overall emotionally so maybe that's why this helps. Like recently someone (who I thought was INFP actually) talked about how it's not always a good idea to push yourself when you want to do x task, and I figured out that that's true. And normally it wouldn't be a problem, normally I just push myself to start on it, but again I'm not in a good place so this insight helped.

 

[noname3788]

... but I think with all the "grip" stuff, it's different. This focusing on and evaluating states like you described for INFP, I noticed that can be useful sometimes, idk if I can explain that. Again I can't just consciously decide to do this, it just seems to help sometimes when I get lucky. It seems to help with making better plans sometimes. Like, it's more flexible planning or more taking into account the states when otherwise they would ruin the plan, but I'm not in the best place overall emotionally so maybe that's why this helps. Like recently someone (who I thought was INFP actually) talked about how it's not always a good idea to push yourself when you want to do x task, and I figured out that that's true. And normally it wouldn't be a problem, normally I just push myself to start on it, but again I'm not in a good place so this insight helped.

That's very much a P thing. It's not like P types don't plan at all, they just use different criteria. I stumbled over a really good description how planning works differently in J and P types: J's prefer time-based scheduling, like set dates, arrangements, plans, to-do lists etc. P types use energy-based scheduling, they do tasks whenever they feel like they're best suited for it. Obviously, the latter will look like procastrination to a J type, and a P type won't have much motivation when following a J-like schedule. What you described in your post is a textbook example of P type scheduling. The issue is, things aren't as simple as "one makes plans, the other doesn't", perceivers definetely do plan ahead, the plans are just subject to change at every time, and that's how J-P confusion can easily arise, especially since P's have to adapt to J scheduling at every day in their life.

That said, I still think an even split between J and P is possible, as well as for any other dichotomy. The functions dive deeper into each type, but I don't think they are too helpful at determining someone's type (and studies like the one reckful linked) seem to prove my point. My stance on this is that functions explain the type, but as type isn't an complete representation of a human being, why should functions be a complete breakdown of someone's thought process?

 

[Meowcat]

That's very much a P thing. It's not like P types don't plan at all, they just use different criteria. I stumbled over a really good description how planning works differently in J and P types: J's prefer time-based scheduling, like set dates, arrangements, plans, to-do lists etc. P types use energy-based scheduling, they do tasks whenever they feel like they're best suited for it. Obviously, the latter will look like procastrination to a J type, and a P type won't have much motivation when following a J-like schedule. What you described in your post is a textbook example of P type scheduling. The issue is, things aren't as simple as "one makes plans, the other doesn't", perceivers definetely do plan ahead, the plans are just subject to change at every time, and that's how J-P confusion can easily arise, especially since P's have to adapt to J scheduling at every day in their life.

It really is complicated for me heh. I think it actually depends on the thing too as to whether I approach it in a J or in a P way. Yeah I agree that what I described about the INFP thingy helping me is more P. And yeah I often change my plans in the way you describe it. Whenever it comes to stuff that I can do anytime, I often change the plans about them. I sometimes frustrate myself with that but sometimes I'm just like, yeah, I want to do x other thing instead now so I change the plan on the fly... But I feel like I do get quite some things done better if I have a schedule and deadlines, it can give motivation. When it comes to more longer term stuff than just a one-time job that can be done in a few hours or within 1 day then I do better if I follow a schedule because otherwise I don't think I would have a good result if I tried to do all of it too rushed near the end. I also like schedules when they allow me to do optimisation for doing the given thing. But I'm less able to do such schedules for tasks since my problems started. Otoh, I got really inflexible in relationships since I got these problems emotionally, I really want things scheduled to be able to feel safe that the other person cares about the relationship too. I didn't need to schedule things in relationships before my emotional problems started.

So it's all a strange change with that. Getting more P in some things, getting more J in other things.... but at least I'm still 50/50 on it overall. : P

That said, I still think an even split between J and P is possible, as well as for any other dichotomy. The functions dive deeper into each type, but I don't think they are too helpful at determining someone's type (and studies like the one reckful linked) seem to prove my point. My stance on this is that functions explain the type, but as type isn't an complete representation of a human being, why should functions be a complete breakdown of someone's thought process?

Right, I like your thinking here. But I'm curious, how does it work for you when you focus on all that inner life stuff as an INFP? If you have some description of it I'd be interested.

 

[noname3788]

Right, I like your thinking here. But I'm curious, how does it work for you when you focus on all that inner life stuff as an INFP? If you have some description of it I'd be interested.

I guess it's mainly deep introspection and reflection. I take some time everyday just doing nothing at all, to get lost in thoughts and figure out what is the best way to continue. There are always some goals that I would like to reach, and some things that I would like to learn more about, and also some vague expectations about how my life should look like in a few years. Also, I would say there's a small set of values that are important to me, which are like a fundament of my personality, which in general is adaptive and changing based on circumstances, avaible information and also emotional state. I personally long to learn and improve, to widen my knowledge to see things as they actually are, and to gain a better understanding of the world around me. Another value would be independence, I don't like to be reliant on other people and like to be capable to function without other people's help, and another one is that I strive to be open to new things, new ideas, and to not judge these too early. I'm not sure whether I am an accurate representation of an average INFP, most INFP's aren't Enneagram 5 for example. Also, I'm very close to being borderline T/F (which isn't expected by function theory). Actually there isn't a good reason why I choose F over T, I just expressed my 50/50 by putting an F in there with a T-like enneagram type.

In the end, learning about myself and looking at me from different perspectives proved way more effective at typing myself than studying functions or taking online tests. And I spend a lot of time with various theories. When I had enough self-knowledge, the type became really obvious, but at the same time, the information about type told me nothing about myself that I didn't already knew.

I'm sure you'll figure it out at some time. No need to rush things.

 

[Meowcat]

I guess it's mainly deep introspection and reflection. I take some time everyday just doing nothing at all, to get lost in thoughts and figure out what is the best way to continue.

Yeah my grip thingy is a lot like that.

There are always some goals that I would like to reach, and some things that I would like to learn more about, and also some vague expectations about how my life should look like in a few years. Also, I would say there's a small set of values that are important to me, which are like a fundament of my personality, which in general is adaptive and changing based on circumstances, avaible information and also emotional state. I personally long to learn and improve, to widen my knowledge to see things as they actually are, and to gain a better understanding of the world around me. Another value would be independence, I don't like to be reliant on other people and like to be capable to function without other people's help, and another one is that I strive to be open to new things, new ideas, and to not judge these too early. I'm not sure whether I am an accurate representation of an average INFP, most INFP's aren't Enneagram 5 for example. Also, I'm very close to being borderline T/F (which isn't expected by function theory). Actually there isn't a good reason why I choose F over T, I just expressed my 50/50 by putting an F in there with a T-like enneagram type.

In the end, learning about myself and looking at me from different perspectives proved way more effective at typing myself than studying functions or taking online tests. And I spend a lot of time with various theories. When I had enough self-knowledge, the type became really obvious, but at the same time, the information about type told me nothing about myself that I didn't already knew.

I'm sure you'll figure it out at some time. No need to rush things.

Thanks, that made sense.

 

[Andy]

Hmm. Is it possible to be in an Ni grip *and* an Fi grip together or just plain INFx grip then?

Mine is like... there is no interaction with the outside world when I am in it. I just feel very introverted and very focused into my internals. And then I get to form some new "big picture" understanding of events, mental events especially, and so it's all internal, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with exploring or interacting with the world in terms of conceptual stuff.

I'm slowly passing it all though, I definitely prefer to return back to my certainty for sure. (Whether that's Si or not)

I mean I could be convinced if you say that it's Si observing the internals and then getting some Ne input about the big picture eventually, but I must repeat, that I do NOTHING about exploring the world like you described Ne do it.

The whole process of getting to the insights and big picture conceptualising of it all and whatever, it is pretty laborious. I'm not very good with anything N-intuitive.

And when I say no interaction with the outside world... I mean I can try and talk with some people to be able to have this process working better - usually they seem to be INFx types yup!! though not always, but always N types for sure and more INxx than ENxx. But the conceptualising (or attempt at conceptualising... not very good attempts by default), they are not about the interaction with the outside world.

And it's not just N-intuitive but it often includes emotions, again pretty internal ones. But it's like, I don't really think or talk about how I feel, that's the hardest really, I instead look at just emotional states "as is". Or sometimes it's what happened with other people, but again I just get to focus internally about all of it. About the events with people. Not sure if I can describe this better....


Does this sound like either NiFe or FiNe?



PS: LOL the Ji-Fe example. I had a friend who would totally do that lolololol. She wanted others to do things, she was just the one saying "That's terrible - why doesn't somebody do something about it?" or sometimes, "That's terrible - why don't YOU do something about it?" ........ The worst is, it took years for me to realise that she was contradicting herself there ha ha. I just let her be. But I did figure it out eventually, damnit! ...

If there is no externalising, then you are most likely caught up in a double introversion, primary coupled to tertiary. An Fi-Pi loop is the mark of an IFP who hasn't come to grips with their auxiliary function yet. This is usually characterised by a strong sense of what is important (the primary Fi) but the poorly developed Pi leaves them uncertain about what to actually do about it, frequently because they send too much time worrying about potential consequences or because they end up doubting their own abilities or knowledge.

A Pi-Ji loop is more characterised by an inability to decide what is desirable (as opposed to necessary). Such individuals often find themselves drifting, unable to find any great sense of attachment to anything.

 

[Meowcat]

If there is no externalising, then you are most likely caught up in a double introversion, primary coupled to tertiary. An Fi-Pi loop is the mark of an IFP who hasn't come to grips with their auxiliary function yet. This is usually characterised by a strong sense of what is important (the primary Fi) but the poorly developed Pi leaves them uncertain about what to actually do about it, frequently because they send too much time worrying about potential consequences or because they end up doubting their own abilities or knowledge.

A Pi-Ji loop is more characterised by an inability to decide what is desirable (as opposed to necessary). Such individuals often find themselves drifting, unable to find any great sense of attachment to anything.

I see. Neither fits me. I'm pretty much the opposite of what you described for IFP, because I don't have a problem deciding what to do about something if I decide that that something is important. Pi-Ji also doesn't fit because I don't have an issue with attachment or with deciding what's desirable. What I have a problem with in this "NF grip" is figuring out what the hell is going on internally and access to the internal emotions is also a big problem. If I get to access the emotions then I can go back to normal after that, it suddenly is not that important anymore to try and figure out what's going on internally because I can just go back to the external world to take action instead. So I just go back to ignoring my internals then. But sometimes I can figure it out and that is when I get the "new "big picture" understanding of events, mental events especially". And that helps too.

Any thoughts on this?

The double introversion did make sense in that it's definitely too introverted, lol.

 

[Pionart]

If there is no externalising, then you are most likely caught up in a double introversion, primary coupled to tertiary. An Fi-Pi loop is the mark of an IFP who hasn't come to grips with their auxiliary function yet. This is usually characterised by a strong sense of what is important (the primary Fi) but the poorly developed Pi leaves them uncertain about what to actually do about it, frequently because they send too much time worrying about potential consequences or because they end up doubting their own abilities or knowledge.

A Pi-Ji loop is more characterised by an inability to decide what is desirable (as opposed to necessary). Such individuals often find themselves drifting, unable to find any great sense of attachment to anything.

Do keep in mind though that Ne isn't always thought of as being external, because Ne's objective ideas/patterns can be seen as existing in the mind rather than reality, because you can't easily point to what it's looking at. How does one differentiate Ne's abstractions of environmental phenomena, from introverted perception's subjective viewing of it?

 

[Andy]

I see. Neither fits me. I'm pretty much the opposite of what you described for IFP, because I don't have a problem deciding what to do about something if I decide that that something is important. Pi-Ji also doesn't fit because I don't have an issue with attachment or with deciding what's desirable. What I have a problem with in this "NF grip" is figuring out what the hell is going on internally and access to the internal emotions is also a big problem. If I get to access the emotions then I can go back to normal after that, it suddenly is not that important anymore to try and figure out what's going on internally because I can just go back to the external world to take action instead. So I just go back to ignoring my internals then. But sometimes I can figure it out and that is when I get the "new "big picture" understanding of events, mental events especially". And that helps too.

Any thoughts on this?

The double introversion did make sense in that it's definitely too introverted, lol.

I think what you are describing is a Pi-Ji loop, just one a little different to what I described. The most important thing to understand about functions is that they can express themselves in many different ways. Anything that fits the rather broad definitions I gave in my first post in the thread can be an expression of that function, and the same idea applies to combinations of functions. 'Sorting out what the hell is going on internally' sounds to me like a valid expression of how I defined Fi as the urge to form opinions based upon ideas of social, moral or emotional worth. I guess the definition I used was based more in my own personal experience of what an Pi-Ji loop feels like, but it seems your own personal experience is different. Your weak Ji resulted in confusing emotions, rather than my own lack of them. Don't forget, typology fits 7 billion people into 16 types - there is going to be a lot of variation within a type!

The bit about ignoring your internals is probably your auxiliary kicking in to keep you on track. In my own life, there have been occasions were I found myself thinking "Well Andy, you've got to deal with this regardless of how you feel about it, so deal with it first and worry about you feel about it later."

Do keep in mind though that Ne isn't always thought of as being external, because Ne's objective ideas/patterns can be seen as existing in the mind rather than reality, because you can't easily point to what it's looking at. How does one differentiate Ne's abstractions of environmental phenomena, from introverted perception's subjective viewing of it?

Ah yes, I've read an awful lot about various functions being subjective/objective and the like. After thinking about it for over a long time, I slowly came to the conclusion that the whole thing was a intellectual dead end that led to nothing useful. All functions exist within the mind and of them are subjective. They are, after all, about motivations - desires, if you will - and there is no such thing as an objective desire.

That said, you're under no obligations to agree with me (as if you need to be told that), so go ahead and explore the idea as much as you like.

 

[Pionart]

I think what you are describing is a Pi-Ji loop, just one a little different to what I described. The most important thing to understand about functions is that they can express themselves in many different ways. Anything that fits the rather broad definitions I gave in my first post in the thread can be an expression of that function, and the same idea applies to combinations of functions. 'Sorting out what the hell is going on internally' sounds to me like a valid expression of how I defined Fi as the urge to form opinions based upon ideas of social, moral or emotional worth. I guess the definition I used was based more in my own personal experience of what an Pi-Ji loop feels like, but it seems your own personal experience is different. Your weak Ji resulted in confusing emotions, rather than my own lack of them. Don't forget, typology fits 7 billion people into 16 types - there is going to be a lot of variation within a type!

The bit about ignoring your internals is probably your auxiliary kicking in to keep you on track. In my own life, there have been occasions were I found myself thinking "Well Andy, you've got to deal with this regardless of how you feel about it, so deal with it first and worry about you feel about it later."



Ah yes, I've read an awful lot about various functions being subjective/objective and the like. After thinking about it for over a long time, I slowly came to the conclusion that the whole thing was a intellectual dead end that led to nothing useful. All functions exist within the mind and of them are subjective. They are, after all, about motivations - desires, if you will - and there is no such thing as an objective desire.

That said, you're under no obligations to agree with me (as if you need to be told that), so go ahead and explore the idea as much as you like.

Strictly speaking you may be right, but nonetheless there's a sense in which the introverted functions perceive information in terms of an internal store in the mind of the individual, and the extroverted functions perceive it in terms of things that are related to the external properties. Ti for instance perceiving a web of logical relations, and Te perceiving the way the object may be made to function. Ti nonetheless may view categories which are generally agreed upon, but they are less about what the object appears as in reality, and more about a structure in the mind. For example, Ti "this can is made of aluminium, which is a metal, atomic number 13, and may bond with other elements", and Te concerning itself with the process by which the can is produced, and what may be done with it thereby.

So it's about an internal manifestation of properties, in contrast to an external one. The former may be viewed as subjective, and the latter as objective. Though viewing it in terms of a reflective versus active process works too, with introverted functions tending to narrow in on something, and extroverted functions moving outward into separate instances.

Se perceiving the redness of the can may be seen as still subjective, because the redness is perceived by the individual, but it is nonetheless objective in a typological sense, because that perception is as if it were external to the individual.

 

[Meowcat]

I think what you are describing is a Pi-Ji loop, just one a little different to what I described. The most important thing to understand about functions is that they can express themselves in many different ways. Anything that fits the rather broad definitions I gave in my first post in the thread can be an expression of that function, and the same idea applies to combinations of functions. 'Sorting out what the hell is going on internally' sounds to me like a valid expression of how I defined Fi as the urge to form opinions based upon ideas of social, moral or emotional worth. I guess the definition I used was based more in my own personal experience of what an Pi-Ji loop feels like, but it seems your own personal experience is different. Your weak Ji resulted in confusing emotions, rather than my own lack of them. Don't forget, typology fits 7 billion people into 16 types - there is going to be a lot of variation within a type!

The bit about ignoring your internals is probably your auxiliary kicking in to keep you on track. In my own life, there have been occasions were I found myself thinking "Well Andy, you've got to deal with this regardless of how you feel about it, so deal with it first and worry about you feel about it later."

I used to have a lack of emotions actually. Then it all turned into this. I'm only able to ignore the internals AFTER I (indirectly*) worried enough about how I feel, lol. Your method of procrastinating on that is what I used to do but that no longer works. The reasoning "you've got to deal with this regardless of how you feel about it, so deal with it first and worry about you feel about it later", I can't do it because the emotion (not consciously) blocks my way in going forward. That much I have figured out.

*: Indirectly: When I am doing this thing with the "internal life" of mine, for most of the time I do not actually think about how I feel. That may complicate the issue, yah, but I just do not. Until I actually - spontaneously - get to see some emotion. And then I spend really really little time with the emotion before it starts the process of returning back to normal. Which has had me consider I may have inferior Feeling.

Where I said it's suddenly not important to figure out the internals, it's because I somehow defined it enough for the time being so then I can do a concrete action plan. The whole mess does come back later though and then I try to figure it out again. The defining, it's not really about forming opinions of social or moral worth. Not sure what "emotional worth" means here but I think I don't do that either.



An example is, a few days ago I was thrown for this thing, and then in that case I ended up coming out by doing a mental "intuitiveish" big picture eventually, those intuitive pictures are really hard for me to do - I instead drown in some kind of internal mental details until I can get to them - but it's effective when I manage to. That issue did involve another person I had an issue with. After seeing that conclusion, I felt things really clicked and I knew that finally nothing was in the way to go back to normal. More importantly, I knew this was not going to be an issue in future. This big picture can be utilised to have more control over seeing where things are going (Ni? or can Ne do this too). And, this is very important with these issues because I DO NOT WANT TO feel that the issue will repeat. It's one of the major concerns when I am in this "grip".

In other cases (more often) it's what I said about defining whatever and then doing the concrete action plan/take action. Like in a recent example after seeing the horrible emotion that I was inside, consequently I defined that I was going to have to just shorten the whole thing, because I noticed that my end conclusions about how to move on from this specific type of shit have become repetitive. I would afterwards just almost immediately recognise that I'm having that certain horrible type of emotion.

I don't know, my calling it a certain* horrible emotion (*: not going to give the whole category name here now, it's kind of idiosyncratic), is that a judgment of emotional worth or? To me it's just a definition that kinda makes me see the stuff more clearly. The thing is as soon as I could see the emotion I was already put in a different situation internally than before. Until then just plain deep down in the internal whatevers mentally. When I could see the emotion I could see a more concrete situation too you could say it became more objective. Which is where I've considered Fe. Even if it wasn't me spending time in a social situation with other people.

Or another recent example was again about a situation with some other person, I decided I needed to redefine their action in the social context. This action of theirs was emotional, so maybe I judged emotional and social and moral worth (all those actually) by Fi? Or social viewpoint of Fe? I tried to redefine it in a way that it would change my internal reaction to a more sustainable version. As soon as I managed to, I was over the "grip" episode for the time being. I managed to, because I had an intuitiveish insight first though about my internals where I'd been spending the time for hours. BTW usually the issue just involves my own life, is not directly about situations with other people.

So I'm still undecided on this whole Ni/Ne/Fi/Fe thing for myself.


PS: One more thing I thought of. I don't actually think it's a loop, because it's unmaintainable. The way loops are described, they are more maintainable than this thing. This thing is too much undermining my whole default sense of reality, so I am convinced that my Inferior function must be involved in it. (Either Feeling or Intuition being the Inferior). It does feel like a grip rather than a loop. Grip is when you get stuck in the Inferior function in some way.

 

[Meowcat]

Strictly speaking you may be right, but nonetheless there's a sense in which the introverted functions perceive information in terms of an internal store in the mind of the individual, and the extroverted functions perceive it in terms of things that are related to the external properties. Ti for instance perceiving a web of logical relations, and Te perceiving the way the object may be made to function. Ti nonetheless may view categories which are generally agreed upon, but they are less about what the object appears as in reality, and more about a structure in the mind. For example, Ti "this can is made of aluminium, which is a metal, atomic number 13, and may bond with other elements", and Te concerning itself with the process by which the can is produced, and what may be done with it thereby.

So it's about an internal manifestation of properties, in contrast to an external one. The former may be viewed as subjective, and the latter as objective. Though viewing it in terms of a reflective versus active process works too, with introverted functions tending to narrow in on something, and extroverted functions moving outward into separate instances.

Se perceiving the redness of the can may be seen as still subjective, because the redness is perceived by the individual, but it is nonetheless objective in a typological sense, because that perception is as if it were external to the individual.

Hmm by default I view separate facts and objects. Then I can also get detailed and narrowing in on something and I don't mind that either, but it does require extra patience but it's okay. And when I go in this "grip" I'm again detailed and narrowing in on something in my internals (not directly emotional) until I feel like I'm seeing a more objective (not detailed/narrowed) situation again when I finally see my emotion that was blocked until then. The emotion can be about myself or about others. It's usually my internal emotional state though (that I did not see until then). And then from that objectivity I can define things and then I really quickly go even more objective to a concrete action plan and then I am back to normal and can take action as normal.

 

[Andy]

Strictly speaking you may be right, but nonetheless there's a sense in which the introverted functions perceive information in terms of an internal store in the mind of the individual, and the extroverted functions perceive it in terms of things that are related to the external properties. Ti for instance perceiving a web of logical relations, and Te perceiving the way the object may be made to function. Ti nonetheless may view categories which are generally agreed upon, but they are less about what the object appears as in reality, and more about a structure in the mind. For example, Ti "this can is made of aluminium, which is a metal, atomic number 13, and may bond with other elements", and Te concerning itself with the process by which the can is produced, and what may be done with it thereby.

So it's about an internal manifestation of properties, in contrast to an external one. The former may be viewed as subjective, and the latter as objective. Though viewing it in terms of a reflective versus active process works too, with introverted functions tending to narrow in on something, and extroverted functions moving outward into separate instances.

Se perceiving the redness of the can may be seen as still subjective, because the redness is perceived by the individual, but it is nonetheless objective in a typological sense, because that perception is as if it were external to the individual.

Again, I'd have to disagree. Ti doesn't see things as network of logical connections because Ti isn't about logic. No function is. Ti is the urge to decide what mattes to you in based upon ideas of technical worth. This may lead an individual to decide that logical is a worthy thing, and fields of study that show or require it are therefor also worth. For example,when an INTP decides that astronomy is a better field of study than astrology because it is based in science, they are expressing Ti. When an INTP decides that astrology is the more worth because it gives a glimpse into the hidden world of the mystical that lies beyond what mere, mechanical logic can perceive, that is also an expression of Ti. It's just not one that most of us would agree with, but that doesn't change the fact that both INTPs are concerned by what field of knowledge is worthy of study due to its intrinsic characteristics rather than its relationship to the world around them.

An ESTJ might decide that neither field is worth a damn because astronomy has so little relevance to the day to day world and astronomy is bunkum. That would be an expression of Te, but it also would be if they had decided that astronomy was a good thing to study because it promises to make predictions about life that they can use. The fact that they are wrong doesn't stop it from being an expression of Te.

A similar argument can be made for most of the other functions. Se, for example, is about the urge to experience the world. An ESTPs primary urge is to interact with the world, to immerse themselves in it and experience everything it has to offer. Se is more sensual than sensory. To know through doing.

I used to have a lack of emotions actually. Then it all turned into this. I'm only able to ignore the internals AFTER I (indirectly*) worried enough about how I feel, lol. Your method of procrastinating on that is what I used to do but that no longer works. The reasoning "you've got to deal with this regardless of how you feel about it, so deal with it first and worry about you feel about it later", I can't do it because the emotion (not consciously) blocks my way in going forward. That much I have figured out.

*: Indirectly: When I am doing this thing with the "internal life" of mine, for most of the time I do not actually think about how I feel. That may complicate the issue, yah, but I just do not. Until I actually - spontaneously - get to see some emotion. And then I spend really really little time with the emotion before it starts the process of returning back to normal. Which has had me consider I may have inferior Feeling.

Where I said it's suddenly not important to figure out the internals, it's because I somehow defined it enough for the time being so then I can do a concrete action plan. The whole mess does come back later though and then I try to figure it out again. The defining, it's not really about forming opinions of social or moral worth. Not sure what "emotional worth" means here but I think I don't do that either.



An example is, a few days ago I was thrown for this thing, and then in that case I ended up coming out by doing a mental "intuitiveish" big picture eventually, those intuitive pictures are really hard for me to do - I instead drown in some kind of internal mental details until I can get to them - but it's effective when I manage to. That issue did involve another person I had an issue with. After seeing that conclusion, I felt things really clicked and I knew that finally nothing was in the way to go back to normal. More importantly, I knew this was not going to be an issue in future. This big picture can be utilised to have more control over seeing where things are going (Ni? or can Ne do this too). And, this is very important with these issues because I DO NOT WANT TO feel that the issue will repeat. It's one of the major concerns when I am in this "grip".

In other cases (more often) it's what I said about defining whatever and then doing the concrete action plan/take action. Like in a recent example after seeing the horrible emotion that I was inside, consequently I defined that I was going to have to just shorten the whole thing, because I noticed that my end conclusions about how to move on from this specific type of shit have become repetitive. I would afterwards just almost immediately recognise that I'm having that certain horrible type of emotion.

I don't know, my calling it a certain* horrible emotion (*: not going to give the whole category name here now, it's kind of idiosyncratic), is that a judgment of emotional worth or? To me it's just a definition that kinda makes me see the stuff more clearly. The thing is as soon as I could see the emotion I was already put in a different situation internally than before. Until then just plain deep down in the internal whatevers mentally. When I could see the emotion I could see a more concrete situation too you could say it became more objective. Which is where I've considered Fe. Even if it wasn't me spending time in a social situation with other people.

Or another recent example was again about a situation with some other person, I decided I needed to redefine their action in the social context. This action of theirs was emotional, so maybe I judged emotional and social and moral worth (all those actually) by Fi? Or social viewpoint of Fe? I tried to redefine it in a way that it would change my internal reaction to a more sustainable version. As soon as I managed to, I was over the "grip" episode for the time being. I managed to, because I had an intuitiveish insight first though about my internals where I'd been spending the time for hours. BTW usually the issue just involves my own life, is not directly about situations with other people.

So I'm still undecided on this whole Ni/Ne/Fi/Fe thing for myself.


PS: One more thing I thought of. I don't actually think it's a loop, because it's unmaintainable. The way loops are described, they are more maintainable than this thing. This thing is too much undermining my whole default sense of reality, so I am convinced that my Inferior function must be involved in it. (Either Feeling or Intuition being the Inferior). It does feel like a grip rather than a loop. Grip is when you get stuck in the Inferior function in some way.

The inferior usually plays up when the urges of the primary are denied for some reason. The inferior grip is often an attempt to 'drown out' the unforefilled urges of primary by overindulging the opposite function.

Ways of thinking that aren't maintainable are often associated with the shadow function. These functions are too similar to primary and auxiliary functions, which means any attempt to think that way invariably cause the persons thoughts to drift towards patterns more like those because the call of the primary/auxiliary is too strong. The same is fundamentally true of the tertiary and inferior functions, but because these functions aren't as strong, the process of drift takes longer. Also the passing similarity to the primary/auxiliary can act to make them seem more familiar to the primary/auxiliary functions, causing a person to try thinking that way, only to find they can't keep it up. For example, an IFJ trying to decide what is important to them on a personal level (a Ji urge) may try to make the decision in an Fi style, calling upon arguments of morality or their own emotional experiences, but will tend to find themselves making a final decision based upon what they judge to be necessary because that is what the much stronger Fe urge wants. To actually make the original decision, they need to engage their Ti and think about appeals to them ona technical level, because Ti is the Ji function that can avoid being sucked in by the dominant social urge of Fe.