[Traditional Enneagram] Enneagram Random Thought Thread

[Peter Deadpan]

People who can't relate to their supposed disintegration or integration type are probably not the type they think they are.

i.e. 4s who can't relate to 2s at all.

That is assuming people can see who they actually are versus who they think they are.

 

[Luminous]

People who can't relate to their supposed disintegration or integration type are probably not the type they think they are.

i.e. 4s who can't relate to 2s at all.

Perhaps, but core type, health level, and wing, are more obvious. People are their core, and they're just going to be their core, flavored with the integration and disintegration points, not actually turn into the integration and disintegration types.

 

[Morpeko]

Perhaps, but core type, health level, and wing, are more obvious. People are their core, and they're just going to be their core, flavored with the integration and disintegration points, not actually turn into the integration and disintegration types.

I addressed this in Discord. They're obviously not going to turn into said integration and disintegration types. It's just ridiculous that some people claim not to have any influence from either point. It goes without saying that core type and wing are the more obvious aspects.

 

[Vendrah]

I've noticed a lot of them tend to toe the line between extroversion and introversion more than they think, with the emphasis of their introversion being either socially based/a distaste for personal interaction or a huge need to have moments to themselves to just relax and get away from the stresses of life. The biggest difference between the withdrawn triad and introversion (which people tend to overly conflate) is that the withdrawn triad specifically is one that struggles with initiation and moving past thought into action, hence you can have a lot of very assertive and independent introverts who are very inclined to do their own thing or even very active introverts very engaged in activities that bring them energy whom have little difficulty initiating things. For example, I know a 6w5 (638 sp/so) ISTJ who is very solitary and places a lot of emphasis on having his own time to think and pursue his solitary interests, but is very inclined to be active and pushy about what he wants and, despite the 5 wing, is not particularly withdrawn in the sense that he's very present in the world (I initially suspected him ESTJ, but was laughed at when I suggested him extroverted, for example).

Withdrawn triad is 4, 5 and 9, right?
A person that has these 3 types on their tri-type are quite likely to be introverted, and if these are the 3 types they relate the most (regardless of tritype underlying rules of heart-head-gut) then it is imminent that they are introverted, otherwise it is just poor self-report. However, if they have one of these as core type and the other 2 enneagram tri-types are "extraverted" enneagram types - like on your 638 example - that changes completely, just the core alone does not predict much introversion (although it is a tendency).

People who can't relate to their supposed disintegration or integration type are probably not the type they think they are.

i.e. 4s who can't relate to 2s at all.

But you are implicit trusting that the supposed disintegration or integration arrows for each type (7 goes to 1 and etc...) and that whole dynamics is correct, and that notion is treated as absolute (as lots of ennea dogmas) but it is far from being actually absolute. I mean these theories of integration and disintegration could be wrong and these people could be right.

 

[RadicalDoubt]

Withdrawn triad is 4, 5 and 9, right?
A person that has these 3 types on their tri-type are quite likely to be introverted, and if these are the 3 types they relate the most (regardless of tritype underlying rules of heart-head-gut) then it is imminent that they are introverted, otherwise it is just poor self-report. However, if they have one of these as core type and the other 2 enneagram tri-types are "extraverted" enneagram types - like on your 638 example - that changes completely, just the core alone does not predict much introversion (although it is a tendency).

Correct, I agree with this entirely, the withdrawn types are correlated with introversion (and being triple withdrawn by character defies extroversion, it is one of the combinations that I think would be impossible but one people often self report as) in the same way 378 correlates with extroversion. It's important that, while the overlap is noted, that they are not considered as equals as many seem to do.

 

[Morpeko]

Withdrawn triad is 4, 5 and 9, right?
A person that has these 3 types on their tri-type are quite likely to be introverted, and if these are the 3 types they relate the most (regardless of tritype underlying rules of heart-head-gut) then it is imminent that they are introverted, otherwise it is just poor self-report. However, if they have one of these as core type and the other 2 enneagram tri-types are "extraverted" enneagram types - like on your 638 example - that changes completely, just the core alone does not predict much introversion (although it is a tendency).



But you are implicit trusting that the supposed disintegration or integration arrows for each type (7 goes to 1 and etc...) and that whole dynamics is correct, and that notion is treated as absolute (as lots of ennea dogmas) but it is far from being actually absolute. I mean these theories of integration and disintegration could be wrong and these people could be right.

Nothing in Typology is absolute. At that point, why not just disregard wings and tritype altogether?

 

[Vendrah]

Correct, I agree with this entirely, the withdrawn types are correlated with introversion (and being triple withdrawn by character defies extroversion, it is one of the combinations that I think would be impossible but one people often self report as) in the same way 378 correlates with extroversion. It's important that, while the overlap is noted, that they are not considered as equals as many seem to do.

I agree, it is not exactly equal but one implies the other (actually, on the enneagram side to MBTI, not from MBTI to enneagram).

Nothing in Typology is absolute. At that point, why not just disregard wings and tritype altogether?

I love use enneagram as a supplement to both MBTI and Jung Typology.
I like tri-type because it gives a lot of info about you - more than a Jung type.
About the wing system, I already disregard it, actually. I don't see it as being much useful (while the types and tri-types are). For example, if you are a 5w6, as a wing that just means 6>4.

 

[Pessimistic Hippie]

I think that a reason why I ran around in circles so much before settling on 4 was because I don't consciously try to do things different out of fear of anything. I just like it and can't imagine any other way I would choose to be. It feels like there's too much open realm to change things to be ignored.

 

[fatgurl]

From enneagram 4 to 5 to 9 to 4 to 5 to 6 and now back to 9, lol. I'm pretty sure 9 is my type now. Tbh, when I first started the enneagram, type 9 was the only one I could completely relate to but continued to convince myself I wasn't a nine because I was emotional and didn't like to sleep all day, lol. I used to avoid reading stuff about 9s, cause I just thought of that type as a doormat based on how it was talked about. And being a 9 just reminded me of all the times I let people walk all over me, and just feeling like I didn't have an identity of my own. Also made myself believe I was growing when trying to do the growth work of other types that were not my core type.

After about a year of learning to accept me more, I'm confident in being a 9. A friend of mine told me she was glad that I was in her life (which made me tear up) I was like I actually matter to someone. It's hard for me to accept that I matter to people in my life like I feel most times if I didn't exist, it wouldn't make a difference. But reading more about the positive qualities of 9s, helped me to appreciate things about myself.

 

[KKB78]

I think 2's mistype as 9's a lot because they mistake things like the message of "your presence matters" as being about about an affirmation of a suspicion they unconciously hold whereas what that message is really saying for 9 is that they're part of humanity while they suspected otherwise it shocks 9 to be told they're part of humanity and it reaffirms the e2 feeling of being someone others basically can't live without to be told that their presence matters they long for that confirmation on their suspicion
Both 2 and 9 want to be loved but 9 shoves that desire into the subconcious by becoming resigned to never recieving love while 2's desire is concious and they employ things like manuvering in order to materialize the ideal highly responsive love they feel they deserve
When 9 talks about love its more like its talking about humanity while when 2 talks about its more like its talking about human relationships period their implied reciprocation based nature especially in the ideal way human relationships are "supposed to" work
I think what makes 9 extremely distinct from the other two positive outlook types is that the other two are in love with themselves but 9 isn't in love with themselves at all they've given up on themselves
I think 2's at average to unhealthy levels are likely not to understand how much they help to be rewarded in some way and incorrectly believe that they have given up on themselves when they do it
Being a 9 feels like being a small child somewhere they are not supposed to be surrounded by many breakable objects it's bad enough you don't belong here but breaking something is sure to make it worse so you are careful in a way with the external enviornment
I don't agree with a lot of what David Gray goes on about but I think he was onto something when he said at point 9 there is a hypersensitivity to the sharpness and harshness of the emotional atmosphere an excessive attachment to it and that 9 is sort of like if the body itself were an ear listening to the vibrations of the atmosphere sensing them
Which I think especially in 9's with a strong line to phobic 6 can superficially be confused with e2 desire to form co-enabling relationships but it's much less active than that usually as well as more adaptive

 

[KKB78]

There's a hint of the image in the fantasy spinner aspect of sexual 9 (that makes sense given that this is the subtype that tends to be best connected to 3) because in order to try to be attractive the 9 attaches to archetypes that already exist instead of having to assert that they're desirable and attractive they just happen to be located near some attractive archetypes, associated
It's most potent with the triple fantasy tritype sx9's who are the ones that deal out 20 attractive fictional characters a minute, embody them without ever once asserting that they're the attractive one
They're vampires, anime characters, cowboys, princes, etc.
It has a slightly awkward, a little clumsy, and uncouth quality to it that gives away the fact that ultimately they're not actual image types and of course the inconsistency alone (its not like a true image type who thinks they are in what people can see this is somewhat more casual because it is just a facet instead of being about the whole self being in what is seen so investment is a little less) should give it away the image isn't a narrative it's less linguistic and language is the tool of the image triad instead its more non-verbal as is the way of the gut triad
It almost resembles 4 because the excluded feelings at the core of 9 make them unable to play it straight like a straight up 3 because 3 is such an insider they brag, they tell us all they're the best in the conventional ways
9 has to do it a little eccentric and a little geeky like the fellow outsider 4 and this is also part why sx 9 gets erroneously thrown into 4 sometimes too

Also sx 9w8 is powerful servant and sx9w1 is wistful or ethereal servant

 

[KKB78]

I think 4 and 7 can sometimes mistype as eachother because they both believe they're special, have a somewhat similar weird comedic aspect, tend to break convention, and are very focused on their own desires

 

[KKB78]

I think 2's mistype as 9's a lot because they mistake things like the message of "your presence matters" as being about about an affirmation of a suspicion they unconciously hold whereas what that message is really saying for 9 is that they're part of humanity while they suspected otherwise it shocks 9 to be told they're part of humanity and it reaffirms the e2 feeling of being someone others basically can't live without to be told that their presence matters they long for that confirmation on their suspicion
Both 2 and 9 want to be loved but 9 shoves that desire into the subconcious by becoming resigned to never recieving love while 2's desire is concious and they employ things like manuvering in order to materialize the ideal highly responsive love they feel they deserve
When 9 talks about love its more like its talking about humanity while when 2 talks about its more like its talking about human relationships period their implied reciprocation based nature especially in the ideal way human relationships are "supposed to" work
I think what makes 9 extremely distinct from the other two positive outlook types is that the other two are in love with themselves but 9 isn't in love with themselves at all they've given up on themselves
I think 2's at average to unhealthy levels are likely not to understand how much they help to be rewarded in some way and incorrectly believe that they have given up on themselves when they do it
Being a 9 feels like being a small child somewhere they are not supposed to be surrounded by many breakable objects it's bad enough you don't belong here but breaking something is sure to make it worse so you are careful in a way with the external enviornment
I don't agree with a lot of what David Gray goes on about but I think he was onto something when he said at point 9 there is a hypersensitivity to the sharpness and harshness of the emotional atmosphere an excessive attachment to it and that 9 is sort of like if the body itself were an ear listening to the vibrations of the atmosphere sensing them
Which I think especially in 9's with a strong line to phobic 6 can superficially be confused with e2 desire to form co-enabling relationships but it's much less active than that usually as well as more adaptive

I guess what I'm getting at is that if I were to identify with any of this I would find it almost insulting that what Riso and Hudson got from Naranjo's ideas was that 9 is a "peacemaker" almost like they were only half listening if what Naranjo published even remotely resembles what he shared with them
9 is the love starved viscerotonic personality that has thickened their skin in order to bear through their own (to them seemingly) unlovable existence and if one were to identify with these things then it would be almost offensive that this was all watered down to "peacemaking" when it comes from a type of unconcious masochism/resignation and is not that active actually
2 also gets confused because R and H's descriptions are about a mix between them and the most phobic of the phobic 6's (who Naranjo distinguished as being the most like classic dependent personality disorder where there's a lot of engratiation and concerns over being liked by everyone in high similarity to 2 as well) they omit the core characteristic of 9 which is resignation that is resignation to the unconscious love wish "I am unlovable"
Instead they focus on "peacemaking" which isn't what type 9 is about
The e2 desire and active seeking to form co-enabling relationships more resembles "peacemaking"

 

[Luminous]

On peacemaking for 9s:

In their book, Personality Types, Don Riso and Russ Hudson describe the Enneagram type 9 as “The Peacemaker.” For some Nines, this moniker may seem a bit off the mark if we think of peacemaking as an active, interpersonal endeavor. Indeed, I suspect many Nines would feel uncomfortable if asked to step in and directly resolve a conflict situation.

The reason Nines may struggle with external peacemaking is their foremost concern, according to Riso and Hudson, is the preservation of inner peace. The procurement of external peace is thus of secondary importance, or perhaps more of a “means to an end,” for this type. All told, it may be more accurate to describe Nines as “peace lovers” rather than peacemakers.

source

At a deeply unconscious level, Type 9 is overly identified with the body. Specifically, the body as a listening device. And just as one role of the human inner ear is to maintain balance, 9s are continually gauging, re-aligning and adjusting internally (at some stratum of psyche) in an attempt to preserve a sense of equilibrium. Emotions that arise upon sensing a disruption in the environmental field register as sensate impressions in the body (or in the etheric/emotional body), analogous to a whale or dolphin using sonar to feel out their surroundings — the sound waves return from an object and flush through the torso, affecting the listener sensually with articulated shape-impressions.

This isn’t to say that people of other types can’t experience something similar, but there’s an oversensitivity in this type — too much attention placed on degrees of balance, an overemphasis on aligning with some esoteric set of kinesthetic meridians. Even subtle increments of incongruity or discordance can raise an alert status as a felt sensation — if only registering subconsciously. Still, some kind of movement or adjustment will have to take place. Disturbing stimuli (‘sharp shapes’ pinging off of someone else’s emotional state, for example) are things to be calmed or placated or avoided and forgotten so as to re-right the course and resume a desired state of body equilibrium.

source

 

[KKB78]

There's a hint of the image in the fantasy spinner aspect of sexual 9 (that makes sense given that this is the subtype that tends to be best connected to 3) because in order to try to be attractive the 9 attaches to archetypes that already exist instead of having to assert that they're desirable and attractive they just happen to be located near some attractive archetypes, associated
It's most potent with the triple fantasy tritype sx9's who are the ones that deal out 20 attractive fictional characters a minute, embody them without ever once asserting that they're the attractive one
They're vampires, anime characters, cowboys, princes, etc.
It has a slightly awkward, a little clumsy, and uncouth quality to it that gives away the fact that ultimately they're not actual image types and of course the inconsistency alone (its not like a true image type who thinks they are in what people can see this is somewhat more casual because it is just a facet instead of being about the whole self being in what is seen so investment is a little less) should give it away the image isn't a narrative it's less linguistic and language is the tool of the image triad instead its more non-verbal as is the way of the gut triad
It almost resembles 4 because the excluded feelings at the core of 9 make them unable to play it straight like a straight up 3 because 3 is such an insider they brag, they tell us all they're the best in the conventional ways
9 has to do it a little eccentric and a little geeky like the fellow outsider 4 and this is also part why sx 9 gets erroneously thrown into 4 sometimes too

Also sx 9w8 is powerful servant and sx9w1 is wistful or ethereal servant

I think this also has to do with the strong link to the collective unconscious that 9 has that they would choose archetypes in general and of course archetypes are alive and well in the media hence fictional characters

 

[KKB78]

On peacemaking for 9s:



source



source

Is this for me I mean probably since I just said all this why would you not quote me hahah it makes it feel so hostile and passive aggressive and awkwardly competitive (you win! I'm not competing with you lol) if that was it but maybe I'm reading too much into that still it would be a weird coincidence or something like that if you posted something so related
If so I generally consider this to basically still be in line with what I was trying to emphasize in my post which is that the original doesn't make 9's peace lovers, peacemakers, peacekeepers etc. It isn't about peace or comfort the original makes them people who have cut themselves off from joy in order to bear through their unlovable existence and they become such intensely alive people when they integrate because they reunite with that fundamental joy
And I did say that I didn't agree with most of what David Grey says I just referenced the small part that may potentially be onto something in my opinion I don't think orienting it toward comfort in such an explicit way captures enough
It's not about comfort necessarily either I think that still resides in 2 Naranjo called their aim the co-comfort operation
9 is actually kind of similar to sp 4 because it's about enduring but instead of doing it for value or love the way sp 4 does 9 does it because they believe no one cares about them so crying out would be futile and resignation
That's why R and H are the worst and a waste of time which is also the worst having one's time wasted
Also my posts here weren't aimed at you if that's what you suspected and why you may have approached things this way I was just trying to put to words a trend I noticed
Maybe I made you mad by telling you that I thought you were a 2 if so that's a shame this stuff is really not for people who want to be told solely good things or want an image from it or whatever its hard and should never have been converted for the laymen in my opinion there should have remained a bar for entry

 

[KKB78]

I think INxJ 6's are the least intuitive (they're almost like more pattern seeking [and more extremely ideological] ISTJ's if inferior intuition could somehow make that a thing) of the N's because 6 is the type most strictly attached to logic which in my opinion kind of holds Ni back because it already limits the pattern seeking to a more concise one in its information sorting whereas it kind of helps Ne by preventing it from going completely all the way off the rails because Ne doesn't limit the pattern seeking in its information gathering
I guess that makes sense given that the paranoid catastrophizing is more in line with inferior Ne than aux or dom Ne and all the IxxJ's have inferior Pe fear overall
Inferior Se is also good at the paranoia that reads into things maliciously away from taking in information directly from reality

 

[KKB78]

I think INFP 4's Ne is the most reigned in of INFP's likely enneagram types because of the pathologically self-referencing nature of type 4 which can sometimes lead to them being confused for ISFP's
Ne 9 and 7 seem like the ones that let their Ne run the most wild because they're more open thinkers

 

[KKB78]

I guess what I'm getting at is that if I were to identify with any of this I would find it almost insulting that what Riso and Hudson got from Naranjo's ideas was that 9 is a "peacemaker" almost like they were only half listening if what Naranjo published even remotely resembles what he shared with them
9 is the love starved viscerotonic personality that has thickened their skin in order to bear through their own (to them seemingly) unlovable existence and if one were to identify with these things then it would be almost offensive that this was all watered down to "peacemaking" when it comes from a type of unconcious masochism/resignation and is not that active actually
2 also gets confused because R and H's descriptions are about a mix between them and the most phobic of the phobic 6's (who Naranjo distinguished as being the most like classic dependent personality disorder where there's a lot of engratiation and concerns over being liked by everyone in high similarity to 2 as well) they omit the core characteristic of 9 which is resignation that is resignation to the unconscious love wish "I am unlovable"
Instead they focus on "peacemaking" which isn't what type 9 is about
The e2 desire and active seeking to form co-enabling relationships more resembles "peacemaking"

I guess what I'm saying is that they didn't peneatrate far enough like they didn't go very far into why 9's act the way they do which they labeled peace loving and called the type peacemaker
Trying to dissipate focus and a loss of interiority, which manifest behaviorally as comfort seeking/excessive attachment to routines in the sp 9
Confluence in the sx 9 and vicariousness via community in the social 9 are all just symptoms of a more fundamental and more comprehensive wound and the symptoms, the behaviors alone could fit a lot of different types it's the neurosis of the type that distinguishes the type
They're all just the coping mechanisms but then what are you needing to cope for
Being present and asserting their individuality or whatever reminds 9's of their own existence which is something they're constantly trying to forget since subconciously they believe they are unlovable
It's not about peace it's about resignation that's why 9's can behave that "peaceful" way they're describing its unconcious masochism and inner deadning shut away from the inner voice and shut out from being controlled by the external as a gut type but a passive one via stubborness the object has trouble moving itself or allowing itself to be moved solely by the external or something like that
Its hard to put into words precisely at the moment maybe I'll come back to this later

 

[KKB78]

I think 9 has a hard time giving up on anything that isn’t themselves because they hold a non-egocentric view of the world

it’s because 9’s have given up on themselves that they won’t genuinely or "permanently" give up on anything else

other types get discouraged at least somewhat more easily and/or more permanently because they have not given up on themselves

So when they fail it has a large impact because the self is at the center, when a 9 fails the world is in perspective

Some of the other types tend to be tenacious in a more angry or painful way, 9 is tenacious in a more optimistic and less strained way because failure isn't personalized quite as much it's not the main event its ultimately in perspective

Tending to minimize pain in the concious mind also helps

It wouldn’t be just the coping mechanism of positive reframing that did it because 2 and 7 are also types that employ that coping mechanism

It would have to be something unique to type 9