Jordan Peterson

[Hypatia]

K lol

Yes, it is actually intellectually embarrassing, and to me, it speaks of a person who is more interested in mass manipulation, than a sincere exploration of their own assumptions and basic beliefs. Please watch CS Joseph's general commentary on INFPs.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

JP is fascinating, not for anything he has to say, but for the polarized reactions he causes in people. I’m reminded of maybe a handful of other public figures who tend to bring similar divisive reactions and for whatever reason people love to continue to obsess over—Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, Trump, maybe Lena Dunham. And they’re all (JP included) rather mediocre, uninteresting people, yet for some reason people tend to feel either strong positive or negative feelings about each.

like maybe his one value is as a surrogate father for a generation of incels who need a little kick in the ass, but I think that says more about present day society than it does about any supposed value or wisdom there may be in his hack writings

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

like maybe his one value is as a surrogate father for a generation of incels who need a little kick in the ass, but I think that says more about present day society than it does about any supposed value or wisdom there may be in his hack writings

Just going to insert my thoughts on incels here:

The incels are probably another "developmental" stage of the people who took PUA (and "being an alpha") as gospel. It's what became of them when it didn't work out for them.

I noticed that incels became prominent around the time I stopped hearing so much about PUA and greek letters.

 

[yeghor]

An xSTJ I guess, he constructs very clear arguments on the spot and can present them with ease. He doesn't come across as an overbearing person but might even be an ESTJ. He has a a way of dressing traditionally and conservatively but keeps choosing ties that don't match the suit, meaning he favors Ne (eccentricity) over Se (color coordination).

An ESTJs' weakest function is Fi meaning he is an ultimate realist and gives little precedence to romanticism, that's why he keeps clashing with the unrealistic la-la-land wishful thinking attitude of alt-left and wokeists (i.e. Fi-dom), and sees distortion of reality (to pamper one's ego/esteem) a sin.

His body language reminds me of Stannis Baratheon in Game of Thrones, whom I believe is also an ESTJ, though he is mostly typed as ISTJ elsewhere. I think Stannis' right-hand guy Sir Davos is less overbearing, more emotional and still a duty-bound guy and is closer to an ISTJ, in contrast.

 

[yeghor]

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Just going to insert my thoughts on incels here:

The incels are probably another "developmental" stage of the people who took PUA (and "being an alpha") as gospel. It's what became of them when it didn't work out for them.

I noticed that incels became prominent around the time I stopped hearing so much

Just going to insert my thoughts on incels here:

The incels are probably another "developmental" stage of the people who took PUA (and "being an alpha") as gospel. It's what became of them when it didn't work out for them.

I noticed that incels became prominent around the time I stopped hearing so much about PUA and greek letters.

Personal theory, and not backed by any hard data: I think at least half of the men in those online incel communities or actively identifying as incels and subscribing to the black pill are likely on the neurodivergent spectrum.

I believe neurodivergence might explain why many of these guys first embraced PUA/TRP--it provided what seemed an easy road map for guys who likely lacked any good social cue recognition, and/or were prone to black and white thinking. A great deal of PUA/TRP seems to involve mask wearing, and attempting to improve social standing--this must appeal to neurodivergent guys who feel hopeless in the social interaction department, guys whose past attempts at actually being themselves (hey, they were likely told that's all they needed to do to find friends and lovers) backfired miserably and left them feeling more rejected by society and the opposite sex.

When PUA/TRP failed them, Black Pill was likely the next logical step, at least in their minds. Unfortunately, black pill theory, while based in correct science, provides a terrible road map for these men. (Self-improvement and overcoming the desire for external female validation is the only real way.)

This suspicion that most of these guys are either neurodivergent or mentally ill is why I find it icky when I see people laughing about incels or wishing death upon them all. Most of them need serious therapy or mental health treatment. Similarly, I don't really enjoy laughing at a lot of radfems and TERPs, because when you encounter them, a lot of the time something is off and it's apparent there is either mental illness or neurodivergence occurring. This forum used to have 1 or 2 pretty hardcore radfem types and I suspect there was something going on under all of the sloganeering and anger, some real frustrations stemming from poor impressions of and/or experience with the opposite sex. Same case with some past "red piller" members.

TL;DR I think neurodivergent Men and Women are especially vulnerable to the messages of extreme gender politics; I think most incel/PUA men are probably autistic or neurodivergent.

 

[Totenkindly]

Regardless of whatever mental illnesses they might have, the TERFs have caused real problems for people in day to day life -- socially, legally, otherwise -- real quality of life problems for people they target, and so they don't get a free pass from me. That also includes people like Peterson. I don't care if they have mental issues or fixations, their propaganda is going as far as to even getting trans people killed and marginalized, as one example. Maybe we still have to figure out how to deal with them realistically, but don't expect me to feel a lot of sympathy even if I would like to be understanding about their limitations.

 

[yeghor]

Personal theory, and not backed by any hard data: I think at least half of the men in those online incel communities or actively identifying as incels and subscribing to the black pill are likely on the neurodivergent spectrum.

I believe neurodivergence might explain why many of these guys first embraced PUA/TRP--it provided what seemed an easy road map for guys who likely lacked any good social cue recognition, and/or were prone to black and white thinking. A great deal of PUA/TRP seems to involve mask wearing, and attempting to improve social standing--this must appeal to neurodivergent guys who feel hopeless in the social interaction department, guys whose past attempts at actually being themselves (hey, they were likely told that's all they needed to do to find friends and lovers) backfired miserably and left them feeling more rejected by society and the opposite sex.

When PUA/TRP failed them, Black Pill was likely the next logical step, at least in their minds. Unfortunately, black pill theory, while based in correct science, provides a terrible road map for these men. (Self-improvement and overcoming the desire for external female validation is the only real way.)

This suspicion that most of these guys are either neurodivergent or mentally ill is why I find it icky when I see people laughing about incels or wishing death upon them all. Most of them need serious therapy or mental health treatment. Similarly, I don't really enjoy laughing at a lot of radfems and TERPs, because when you encounter them, a lot of the time something is off and it's apparent there is either mental illness or neurodivergence occurring. This forum used to have 1 or 2 pretty hardcore radfem types and I suspect there was something going on under all of the sloganeering and anger, some real frustrations stemming from poor impressions of and/or experience with the opposite sex. Same case with some past "red piller" members.

TL;DR I think neurodivergent Men and Women are especially vulnerable to the messages of extreme gender politics; I think most incel/PUA men are probably autistic or neurodivergent.

Neurotypical = Sensor 2/3 of population,

neurodiverse = Intuitive 1/3 of population

Mainstream mating culture = geared towards sensors. Neurodiverse try to fit in the mating rituals and fail. Nobody tells them that they don't have to conform.

They try to find out a manual for it, they end up finding game tactics geared towards sensors, such as PUA, which they are ill-equipped to apply by nature.

Eccentric personality disorders are more common in neurodiverse population whereas abusive/exploitative disorders (such as NPD, HPD, BPD, Antisocial PD etc) are more common in the neurotypical population.

Neurodiverse people are easier targets for people with NPD, BPD, HPD, Antisocial PD because they are not keen to the social mindgames being played. So that might have a role.

What I noticed for myself is that I was failing to make a girlfriend because I've been barking at the wrong trees (i.e. neurotypicals). Once I noticed that, I've become more at peace with myself and I don't feel the need to actively seek a relationship, though I'd welcome one with a compatible neurodiverse partner.

I noticed that the higher the Se and Ti functions, the more physicalllu abusive/exploitative a person becomes.

I don't know much about incels, but from what I read on wiki, they sound like INTPs whereas MGTOWs sound like xSTPs.

 

[ceecee]

Regardless of whatever mental illnesses they might have, the TERFs have caused real problems for people in day to day life -- socially, legally, otherwise -- real quality of life problems for people they target, and so they don't get a free pass from me. That also includes people like Peterson. I don't care if they have mental issues or fixations, their propaganda is going as far as to even getting trans people killed and marginalized, as one example. Maybe we still have to figure out how to deal with them realistically, but don't expect me to feel a lot of sympathy even if I would like to be understanding about their limitations.

Fuck no, TERF's get zero sympathy. While I give people like Ben Burgis credit for trying to show just how unstable and overflowing with right wing propaganda Jordan Peterson is, the fact is that he holds a great deal of influence over the most mentally and emotionally vulnerable people. I mean the people wasting time typing this kook are a very good example of just how much is glossed over to provide "content".

When incels started murdering women, any understanding they might have had disappeared.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Regardless of whatever mental illnesses they might have, the TERFs have caused real problems for people in day to day life -- socially, legally, otherwise -- real quality of life problems for people they target, and so they don't get a free pass from me. That also includes people like Peterson. I don't care if they have mental issues or fixations, their propaganda is going as far as to even getting trans people killed and marginalized, as one example. Maybe we still have to figure out how to deal with them realistically, but don't expect me to feel a lot of sympathy even if I would like to be understanding about their limitations.

I expect absolutely nothing from you or most people. But until the mental health system and overall understanding of these various conditions is improved in the US, I don't expect the trends we're seeing to go away. I stand by my arguments even though most people don't want to hear it. Improve mental health in our society will be better for everyone, including trans people.

Also, no one is defending Elliot Rodgers or similar mass shooters here. When it gets to that point, my sympathy is absent for them. But I'm also not projecting my feelings about Rodgers and other shooters onto the majority of that community, since the majority are not and will not be mass shooters.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Neurotypical = Sensor 2/3 of population,

neurodiverse = Intuitive 1/3 of population

Mainstream mating culture = geared towards sensors. Neurodiverse try to fit in the mating rituals and fail. Nobody tells them that they don't have to conform.

They try to find out a manual for it, they end up finding game tactics geared towards sensors, such as PUA, which they are ill-equipped to apply by nature.

Eccentric personality disorders are more common in neurodiverse population whereas abusive/exploitative disorders (such as NPD, HPD, BPD, Antisocial PD etc) are more common in the neurotypical population.

Neurodiverse people are easier targets for people with NPD, BPD, HPD, Antisocial PD because they are not keen to the social mindgames being played. So that might have a role.

What I noticed for myself is that I was failing to make a girlfriend because I've been barking at the wrong trees (i.e. neurotypicals). Once I noticed that, I've become more at peace with myself and I don't feel the need to actively seek a relationship, though I'd welcome one with a compatible neurodiverse partner.

I noticed that the higher the Se and Ti functions, the more physicalllu abusive/exploitative a person becomes.

I don't know much about incels, but from what I read on wiki, they sound like INTPs whereas MGTOWs sound like xSTPs.

That's key. Neurodivergent people tend to be attracted to and "click" better with other neurodivergent people. These guys are assuming they need to be operating in the same circles and methods that are easy or second nature to the neurotypical population, instead of seeking out communities and groups where they're more likely to meet a lot of other people with similar issues, but who at least have perspective and are less likely to experience a pathogen disgust merely at the sight of them.

 

[ceecee]

I expect absolutely nothing from you or most people. But until the mental health system and overall understanding of these various conditions is improved in the US, I don't expect the trends we're seeing to go away. I stand by my arguments even though most people don't want to hear it. Improve mental health in our society will be better for everyone, including trans people.

Also, no one is defending Elliot Rodgers or similar mass shooters here. When it gets to that point, my sympathy is absent for them. But I'm also not projecting my feelings about Rodgers and other shooters onto the majority of that community, since the majority are not and will not be mass shooters.

Do you think TERF's want to improve mental health in the US for anyone? Not the ones I have encountered. Unfortunately, the right has already weaponized the term "mental health" to the point where it means nothing anymore except to obliterate an already broken health system that's laughed at and discarded public mental health care long ago and got the majority of the public to do the same. People will use health care cost sharing through their churches or political party or some other org that's able to exclude anyone. That's precisely what TERF's are looking to do to trans folks too as they line up politically with any other right wing/conservative/GOPer.

 

[yeghor]

People place Jordan Peterson's views into the upper right quadrant (authoritarian right) in the political compass, which is in direct opposition with the lower left quadrant (libertarian left).

The first image above would make him an INTJ according to my understanding of the compass below. The second one shows a broader spectrum and I think we can safely conclude that he is a TJ of some of sort. That would mean he is not alt-right cause alt right falls to the lower right quadrant (libertarian right) whereas the lower left quadrant (post modernist neo-marxists etc) are the alt-left (libertarian left).

However, I believe a part of the female supporters of the alt-left are actually alt-right (masculine) women, i.e. there's collusion between left-libertarian and right-libertarian women when it comes to feminism and gender issues.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

This suspicion that most of these guys are either neurodivergent or mentally ill is why I find it icky when I see people laughing about incels or wishing death upon them all. Most of them need serious therapy or mental health treatment. Similarly, I don't really enjoy laughing at a lot of radfems and TERPs, because when you encounter them, a lot of the time something is off and it's apparent there is either mental illness or neurodivergence occurring. This forum used to have 1 or 2 pretty hardcore radfem types and I suspect there was something going on under all of the sloganeering and anger, some real frustrations stemming from poor impressions of and/or experience with the opposite sex. Same case with some past "red piller" members.

TL;DR I think neurodivergent Men and Women are especially vulnerable to the messages of extreme gender politics; I think most incel/PUA men are probably autistic or neurodivergent.

I think you are spot on with regards to some of the underlying psychological mechanisms. But of course none of that excuses any crimes that incels might commit, or any of the harm TERFs might cause other people.

I think the role of toxic online communities is unfortunately having an additional effect that isn't helping anyone. I'm thinking of some of the groups that the Highland Park shooter was involved in.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

People place Jordan Peterson's views into the upper right quadrant (authoritarian right) in the political compass, which is in direct opposition with the lower left quadrant (libertarian left).

The first image above would make him an INTJ according to my understanding of the compass below. The second one shows a broader spectrum and I think we can safely conclude that he is a TJ of some of sort. That would mean he is not alt-right cause alt right falls to the lower right quadrant (libertarian right) whereas the lower left quadrant (post modernist neo-marxists etc) are the alt-left (libertarian left).

However, I believe a part of the female supporters of the alt-left are actually alt-right (masculine) women, i.e. there's collusion between left-libertarian and right-libertarian women when it comes to feminism and gender issues.

I wish that last chart included geolibertarianism, but either way, it could probably fit smack in the middle of the X axis and toward the bottom of the Y axis. Right between the syndicalists and the mutualist, I imagine

 

[yeghor]

I wish that last chart included geolibertarianism, but either way, it could probably fit smack in the middle of the X axis and toward the bottom of the Y axis. Right between the syndicalists and the mutualist, I imagine

The chart is not mine, I just made some additions to it. Don't know much about geolibertarianism but when I checked on wiki, it sounded to me like anarcho-communism, the way it considers natural resources as common rather than private property that need to be hired from the public at a cost for privildged use etc.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

The chart is not mine, I just made some additions to it. Don't know much about geolibertarianism but when I checked on wiki, it sounded to me like anarcho-communism, the way it considers natural resources as common rather than private property that need to be hired from the public at a cost for privildged use etc.

geolibs let you keep your paychecks though, and don't tax income. In that sense, they're less socialist than most Republicans and Dems, who still support some draconian tax measures

 

[yeghor]

Peterson calls himself a Classical British Liberal and a Tradionalist. Classical British liberalism lists the following key points:

Classical liberals argued that individuals should be free to obtain work from the highest-paying employers, while the profit motive would ensure that products that people desired were produced at prices they would pay. In a free market, both labour and capital would receive the greatest possible reward, while production would be organized efficiently to meet consumer demand. Classical liberals argued for what they called a minimal state, limited to the following functions:

• A government to protect individual rights and to provide services that cannot be provided in a free market.
• A common national defence to provide protection against foreign invaders.
• Laws to provide protection for citizens from wrongs committed against them by other citizens, which included protection of private property, enforcement of contracts and common law.
• Building and maintaining public institutions.
• Public works that included a stable currency, standard weights and measures and building and upkeep of roads, canals, harbours, railways, communications and postal services.

Edwin Van de Haar states although libertarianism is influenced by classical liberal thought there are significant differences between them.

Classical liberalism refuses to give priority to liberty over order and therefore does not exhibit the hostility to the state which is the defining feature of libertarianism. (yeghor: This statement is key in identifying classical liberalism as a more collectivist/authoritarian ideology than libertarianism/anarchism.)

As such, right-libertarians believe classical liberals favor too much state involvement, arguing that they do not have enough respect for individual property rights and lack sufficient trust in the workings of the free market and its spontaneous order leading to support of a much larger state. Right-libertarians (yeghor: i.e. anarcho-capitalists) also disagree with classical liberals as being too supportive of central banks and monetarist policies.

Core beliefs of classical liberals did not necessarily include democracy nor government by a majority vote by citizens because "there is nothing in the bare idea of majority rule to show that majorities will always respect the rights of property or maintain rule of law". For example, James Madison argued for a constitutional republic with protections for individual liberty over a pure democracy, reasoning that in a pure democracy a "common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole ... and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party"

So, Classic British liberalism sounds closer to Authoritarian Centrism today with emphasis on Rule of Law. That would place Peterson to somewhere to the Right of Center in the political spectrum, closer to authoritarianism than Anarchism.

Below are some younger photos of Peterson. He looks like a Sensor and a J, given his tradional fashion style. He also looks more like a jock than a geek with a well developed upper body. So and SJ type. I think ESTJ was a proper typing as ISTJs tend to prefer more field/action oriented professions.

And he looks like Tim Robbins here.

 

[yeghor]

Regardless of whatever mental illnesses they might have, the TERFs have caused real problems for people in day to day life -- socially, legally, otherwise -- real quality of life problems for people they target, and so they don't get a free pass from me. That also includes people like Peterson. I don't care if they have mental issues or fixations, their propaganda is going as far as to even getting trans people killed and marginalized, as one example. Maybe we still have to figure out how to deal with them realistically, but don't expect me to feel a lot of sympathy even if I would like to be understanding about their limitations.

Fuck no, TERF's get zero sympathy. While I give people like Ben Burgis credit for trying to show just how unstable and overflowing with right wing propaganda Jordan Peterson is, the fact is that he holds a great deal of influence over the most mentally and emotionally vulnerable people. I mean the people wasting time typing this kook are a very good example of just how much is glossed over to provide "content".

When incels started murdering women, any understanding they might have had disappeared.

Couldn't find the proper word yesterday... entrenched

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I've been listening to a few of his videos lately because a family member was listening to him. He has a very strong TJ presentation. I don't see Fe in him. I voted ENTJ, but think ESTJ could be more accurate.

He approaches social issues in an analytical way, even relationships. "For every 11 interactions you need to have 1 conflict to have a healthy relationship". That is a Te application to the subjective realm by actually quantifying the nature of interactions. Fe is known to have more "flow" - that is a term Jung uses to describe it. He is a pragmatist and his error is over-simplifying subjective, complex systems and then presenting the lower resolution conclusion with certitude. Jordan Peterson wants the external world to make sense and be quantifiable. That is his primary drive, so Te has to figure in as primary or secondary.

Edit: I don't care for his positions on social issues and am not a fan. I didn't know about all of it until reading this thread after starting my post, but knew he has a lot of simplistic gender bias that is antiquated.