Random Star Wars Thoughts

[Totenkindly]

oops sorry for the rants

 

[Totenkindly]

 

[RavioliAfficianado]

ROS was almost nothing but fanservice. It felt like the script was written using reddit complaints about the sequel trilogy as a blueprint. It's a lesson in why pandering is bad. In short, people suck, and they even have to ruin silly space wizard movies for me. Disney had actually built up a lot of good will for me up until ROS. They'd made two excellent Star Wars films and two decent Star Wars films. Naturally, people couldn't appreciate that, and had to fuck that up.

Better to be fanservice than taking a giant dump on the fans like the second movie did (honestly can't even remember it's name, that's how terrible it is). And if ROS really was meant to be fanservice based on reddit complaints they clearly didn't understand those complaints. It's just as big a steaming pile of poo as the second movie is.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Better to be fanservice than taking a giant dump on the fans like the second movie did (honestly can't even remember it's name, that's how terrible it is). And if ROS really was meant to be fanservice based on reddit complaints they clearly didn't understand those complaints. It's just as big a steaming pile of poo as the second movie is.

That's why they shouldn't have bothered. Those people weren't going to be satisfied; they haven't been satisfied since 1980.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

That's why they shouldn't have bothered. Those people weren't going to be satisfied; they haven't been satisfied since 1980.

What people are you talking about? I've seen mostly unanimous praise for Rogue One, from old and new fans. And mostly love for the Mandalorian and the final season of The Clone Wars, again from both old and new fans. And I saw a lot of initial praise for TFA, before people started to realize what a hollow retread of ANH it was. Most of the hate I see for Disney era SW is directed at TLJ and ROS, and directed at LF/Disney over how they handled the old EU, with mixed sentiments about Solo and Rebels. So that's 2 productions that have gotten a lot of negative reactions since Disney took over, and 2 that have gotten mixed reactions, but the majority of new SW content made since Disney took over LF seems to be popular with the majority of the fan base. And if you want to go to prequel era, episode 3 was also received fairly well. I personally rank it up there right behind the OT and Rogue One.

The handling of the sequel trilogy aside, I think overall Disney has overseen some great productions that have mostly been received very well in various corners of the fandom. Lots of satisfied fans around since 1980, if you look in the right places. If all you're looking at is the negative fans, then it's easy to think they're a majority of the fanbase, but I don't think that's true, they're just very loud about their likes and dislikes and have a way of intimidating more open minded or casual fans into silence. Don't let the loud ones fool you. And don't take the state of the Sequel trilogy to be representative of new SW as a whole

 

[Totenkindly]

What people are you talking about? I've seen mostly unanimous praise for Rogue One, from old and new fans. And mostly love for the Mandalorian and the final season of The Clone Wars, again from both old and new fans. And I saw a lot of initial praise for TFA, before people started to realize what a hollow retread of ANH it was.

Yeah, that was my observation as well on everything, including TFA. If ANH hadn't existed, it would be a pretty polished, even great film for the genre; but once you compare, well, it's a retread.

My son has watched all the star wars stuff including the streaming serials and thought the final Clone Wars season was great. (I watched an episode of it, just to get a sense of it, and thought it was better than most of the films.)

I really just feel like the last two films of the sequel "trilogy" were poorly managed in terms of telling a consistent and ongoing story. They just really did not have a clear sense of the story arc and viewed it like three one-offs rather than a three-part story. (Well, and ROS can't even seem to make its own story make sense internally.) It's a really weird example of too much control and not enough control over their films simultaneously.

But we have already had that discussion before.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

What people are you talking about? I've seen mostly unanimous praise for Rogue One, from old and new fans. And mostly love for the Mandalorian and the final season of The Clone Wars, again from both old and new fans. And I saw a lot of initial praise for TFA, before people started to realize what a hollow retread of ANH it was. Most of the hate I see for Disney era SW is directed at TLJ and ROS, and directed at LF/Disney over how they handled the old EU, with mixed sentiments about Solo and Rebels. So that's 2 productions that have gotten a lot of negative reactions since Disney took over, and 2 that have gotten mixed reactions, but the majority of new SW content made since Disney took over LF seems to be popular with the majority of the fan base. And if you want to go to prequel era, episode 3 was also received fairly well. I personally rank it up there right behind the OT and Rogue One.

The handling of the sequel trilogy aside, I think overall Disney has overseen some great productions that have mostly been received very well in various corners of the fandom. Lots of satisfied fans around since 1980, if you look in the right places. If all you're looking at is the negative fans, then it's easy to think they're a majority of the fanbase, but I don't think that's true, they're just very loud about their likes and dislikes and have a way of intimidating more open minded or casual fans into silence. Don't let the loud ones fool you. And don't take the state of the Sequel trilogy to be representative of new SW as a whole

To me it looks like they made ROS specifically in response to complaints about TLJ. "A Jedi's weapon deserves more respect" (also I think J.J is just obsessed with just that one lightsaber for some reason) "we can't use hyperspace ramming because it's one in a million".

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

There was also a mission in the old school battlefront II that involved stealing the plans. Technically considered “legends” now.

Pretty much every star wars game had a level about stealing those plans, to be fair.

But I do remember being miffed when I first heard about Rogue One because I stole those damn plans in Dark Forces. You could even find my comment about that here if you dug hard enough.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Y Wing is the most underrated fighter IMO. Total screen time for them in the OT is actually pretty light after The Battle of Yavin. Glad they got to shine in Rogue One, and doing what they were born to do—bomb the shit out of capital ships

They may not be the best dog fighters but they pack quite a punch

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Y Wing is the most underrated fighter IMO. Total screen time for them in the OT is actually pretty light after The Battle of Yavin. Glad they got to shine in Rogue One, and doing what they were born to do—bomb the shit out of capital ships

They may not be the best dog fighters but they pack quite a punch

True, but the B-wing never really got highlighted because they couldn't figure out how to get the cockpits to work against a blue screen. There were supposed to be Mon Calamari B-wing pilots and there's footage of this, but they never worked out how to do the FX shots of the ships.

Notice in ROTJ that the B-wings disappear after the beginning of the battle.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

True, but the B-wing never really got highlighted because they couldn't figure out how to get the cockpits to work against a blue screen. There were supposed to be Mon Calamari B-wing pilots and there's footage of this, but they never worked out how to do the FX shots of the ships.

Notice in ROTJ that the B-wings disappear after the beginning of the battle.

Too bad they couldn't add more B wings in for the special edition.

I'm just saying, after Battle of Yavin, we're lucky to get an occasional glimpse of a Y Wing flyby. X Wings get all the glory. Regarding no B-Wings in Rogue One, I thought it was a relatively new ship not even built until after Yavin. But otherwise, it might have been nice if they could've retconned a squadron into R1, perhaps with some A-Wing escorts. And if they didn't make it back from Scarif, it would provide a good explanation for why there weren't any at the battle of Yavin--who knows, maybe Admiral Raddis had a few docked in his cruiser bay but didn't have any available pilots for that battle. And maybe the ones he had were subsequently destroyed with his capital ship--a lack of pilots able to pilot these could be a decent in-universe explanation for why they aren't seen more often. Maybe it was cheaper to train pilots on the X, Y and A wing designs.

The reason I love Y Wings is, A) they look cool, B) they are a true test of a pilot's skill. Everything I've read about X-Wings suggest they practically fly themselves, that any pilot with basic skills could fly one, as Luke did in ANH. But a Y Wing is a temperamental beast, a relic of the last war, and yet in the right pilot's hands they continue to prove themselves despite being considered too slow and obsolete. It's essentially analogous to an old WWII era fighter being kept service for Korea and Vietnam, and managing to continually prove itself against faster and more advanced tech. It reminds me of a antecodte I read from an American fighter pilot flying a prop fighter against a German jet during the closing days of WWII. He was facing what was faster and far more advanced, and yet he was still able to best the German jet fighter prototype.

Sure, the rebellion would love to have a fleet of mostly Bwings and Xwings, but with those fighters being newer and more expensive, they had to keep relying on old Y Wings left over from the last war to pad out their starfighter corps. Like Starfleet refitting century old Miranda and Excelsior class ships to keep the war effort going against the dominion..

I am glad we got a resistance version of the Y wing, although a part of me wonders why they'd still be using a Clone Wars era design when better designs had been made since (oh yeah, because JJ needed lots of easter eggs and who cares, why overthink it, just enjoy new SW with familiar looking shit flying around). But then another part of me likes the idea that for the most part, technological development by the time of the OT is pretty stagnant and most designs are just revisions of older designs. I've seen fan arguments that the Venator class destroyers were actually superior to the later Imperial class we see in the OT. Empire didn't need the best destroyer, they just needed an intimidating capital ship that was good at policing conquered systems

I do think the B wing has the most unique design of any SW fighter, it almost reminds me of a class of ship we could see in The Last Starfighter

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Another fighter I don't see a lot of love for is the Naboo fighter. It has a classical sci-fi look that harkens back to Flash Gordon and the 1950s, sleek and elegant, very simplistic, simultaneously looking both futuristic and antique

Initially it bothered me that most of the PT ships were too shiny and clean looking, going against that 'used future' look of the OT, but considereing this is part of a royal Naboo fleet, it probably makes sense they keep their fighters and transport ships in the best shape.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Too bad they couldn't add more B wings in for the special edition.

I'm just saying, after Battle of Yavin, we're lucky to get an occasional glimpse of a Y Wing flyby. X Wings get all the glory. Regarding no B-Wings in Rogue One, I thought it was a relatively new ship not even built until after Yavin. But otherwise, it might have been nice if they could've retconned a squadron into R1, perhaps with some A-Wing escorts. And if they didn't make it back from Scarif, it would provide a good explanation for why there weren't any at the battle of Yavin--who knows, maybe Admiral Raddis had a few docked in his cruiser bay but didn't have any available pilots for that battle. And maybe the ones he had were subsequently destroyed with his capital ship--a lack of pilots able to pilot these could be a decent in-universe explanation for why they aren't seen more often. Maybe it was cheaper to train pilots on the X, Y and A wing designs.

The reason I love Y Wings is, A) they look cool, B) they are a true test of a pilot's skill. Everything I've read about X-Wings suggest they practically fly themselves, that any pilot with basic skills could fly one, as Luke did in ANH. But a Y Wing is a temperamental beast, a relic of the last war, and yet in the right pilot's hands they continue to prove themselves despite being considered too slow and obsolete. It's essentially analogous to an old WWII era fighter being kept service for Korea and Vietnam, and managing to continually prove itself against faster and more advanced tech. It reminds me of a antecodte I read from an American fighter pilot flying a prop fighter against a German jet during the closing days of WWII. He was facing what was faster and far more advanced, and yet he was still able to best the German jet fighter prototype.

Sure, the rebellion would love to have a fleet of mostly Bwings and Xwings, but with those fighters being newer and more expensive, they had to keep relying on old Y Wings left over from the last war to pad out their starfighter corps. Like Starfleet refitting century old Miranda and Excelsior class ships to keep the war effort going against the dominion..

I am glad we got a resistance version of the Y wing, although a part of me wonders why they'd still be using a Clone Wars era design when better designs had been made since (oh yeah, because JJ needed lots of easter eggs and who cares, why overthink it, just enjoy new SW with familiar looking shit flying around). But then another part of me likes the idea that for the most part, technological development by the time of the OT is pretty stagnant and most designs are just revisions of older designs. I've seen fan arguments that the Venator class destroyers were actually superior to the later Imperial class we see in the OT. Empire didn't need the best destroyer, they just needed an intimidating capital ship that was good at policing conquered systems

I do think the B wing has the most unique design of any SW fighter, it almost reminds me of a class of ship we could see in The Last Starfighter

i think the reason for no B-wings and A-wings in Rogue One is that the rebellion in that part of the galaxy didn't have them. In legends, they didn't exist yet, but in Rebels, they're around, which is canon.

Another fighter I don't see a lot of love for is the Naboo fighter. It has a classical sci-fi look that harkens back to Flash Gordon and the 1950s, sleek and elegant, very simplistic, simultaneously looking both futuristic and antique

Initially it bothered me that most of the PT ships were too shiny and clean looking, going against that 'used future' look of the OT, but considereing this is part of a royal Naboo fleet, it probably makes sense they keep their fighters and transport ships in the best shape.

It was meant to show "a more civilized age"

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

i think the reason for no B-wings and A-wings in Rogue One is that the rebellion in that part of the galaxy didn't have them. In legends, they didn't exist yet, but in Rebels, they're around, which is canon.



It was meant to show "a more civilized age"

I get my legends and canon lore mixed up.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Even now the canon rules don’t make sense to me. Why weren’t they more selective about retaining some of the old canon? For instance, the Plagueis book is legends even though he is mentioned in a film. So long as his book doesn’t contradict any on screen SW lore, why not leave it canon? Are they planning a live action republic era show or movie that might conflict with the old lore?

The Difference Between Star Wars Canon and Legends

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Honestly, (and I know there’s been new canon books set in-between) the lack of exposition about what happened between 6 and 7 almost makes me wish for an additional trilogy or anthology film covering the first decade or so after Endor.

I am glad Mando is sort of covering the new republic era, albeit through the eyes of republic outsiders, but to directly see the fighting and politicking that went on after 6 would be nice. A good opportunity too to resurrect some more old EU stuff like Mara Jade and maybe even the Bakura stuff, if it can be done in a way that doesn’t conflict with the new timeline

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Honestly, (and I know there’s been new canon books set in-between) the lack of exposition about what happened between 6 and 7 almost makes me wish for an additional trilogy or anthology film covering the first decade or so after Endor.

I am glad Mando is sort of covering the new republic era, albeit through the eyes of republic outsiders, but to directly see the fighting and politicking that went on after 6 would be nice. A good opportunity too to resurrect some more old EU stuff like Mara Jade and maybe even the Bakura stuff, if it can be done in a way that doesn’t conflict with the new timeline

Bloodlines is pretty good at covering between 6 and 7. I wish that some of it was in the movie though, but I've complained enough about that.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Bloodlines is pretty good at covering between 6 and 7. I wish that some of it was in the movie though, but I've complained enough about that.

My thoughts have always been that people watching movies in extended universes shouldn’t feel like they need to read a comic or novel to understand that particular film. There is a way to work exposition into stories without it feeling awkward or forced. For example, Obi’s speech to Luke on Tatooine plus a handful of other lines in the Death Star conference room really told us a basic background of the history leading up to the film, and it was done in a way that felt organic and natural. Even better is when filmmakers can use visual exposition with minor expository dialogue to tell viewers what they need to know. The opening scene of ANH does this well by showing us the might and reach of the empire purely with visuals. Prequel style exposition would have involved a bunch of rebel leaders in a room talking about how powerful the empire was rather than showing us

Even changing the opening crawl a bit could have been enough to add some decent exposition to TFA

But on the other hand I’m all for further exposition in extended media. It just shouldn’t be obligatory. But the people who want the further background at least have the option of exploring further

———

I really want to read the Vader comics with Dr Aphra now

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

My thoughts have always been that people watching movies in extended universes shouldn’t feel like they need to read a comic or novel to understand that particular film. There is a way to work exposition into stories without it feeling awkward or forced. For example, Obi’s speech to Luke on Tatooine plus a handful of other lines in the Death Star conference room really told us a basic background of the history leading up to the film, and it was done in a way that felt organic and natural. Even better is when filmmakers can use visual exposition with minor expository dialogue to tell viewers what they need to know. The opening scene of ANH does this well by showing us the might and reach of the empire purely with visuals. Prequel style exposition would have involved a bunch of rebel leaders in a room talking about how powerful the empire was rather than showing us

Even changing the opening crawl a bit could have been enough to add some decent exposition to TFA

But on the other hand I’m all for further exposition in extended media. It just shouldn’t be obligatory. But the people who want the further background at least have the option of exploring further

Yeah, I agree. It's not true that the original film doesn't have any "space politics" in it. I think with ROS it's become particular egregious, and I'm with [MENTION=7]Totenkindly[/MENTION] about this. There's one comic that appears to be laying the groundwork for Ren's redemption that the movie didn't cover. Like, apparently he didn't kill all of Luke's students, and the ones he did kill was either an accident or self-defense. TLJ seems to suggest that some of Luke's students became the Knights of Ren, but apparently that's not the case here, where the Knights of Ren are more like Patrick Swayze's gang in Point Break. I mean, I like Point Break, but I don't need that here.

———

I really want to read the Vader comics with Dr Aphra now

Those are good. Another reason I like them is that it acknowledges the PT. I mean, yes, they were flawed movies, but I'd much rather people find creative ways to work with them like The Clone Wars than just ignore them altogether. The basic story was good, it was just the way it was executed that was the problem. I'm on Vader Down right now, which has particularly amazing artwork, probably because it's a crossover between Vader and the main Star Wars comic.

I also picked up Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir because it apparently is based on a Clone Wars arc that they didn't end up doing for the revival.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Yeah, I agree. It's not true that the original film doesn't have any "space politics" in it. I think with ROS it's become particular egregious, and I'm with [MENTION=7]Totenkindly[/MENTION] about this. There's one comic that appears to be laying the groundwork for Ren's redemption that the movie didn't cover. Like, apparently he didn't kill all of Luke's students, and the ones he did kill was either an accident or self-defense. TLJ seems to suggest that some of Luke's students became the Knights of Ren, but apparently that's not the case here, where the Knights of Ren are more like Patrick Swayze's gang in Point Break. I mean, I like Point Break, but I don't need that here.

———


Those are good. Another reason I like them is that it acknowledges the PT. I mean, yes, they were flawed movies, but I'd much rather people find creative ways to work with them like The Clone Wars than just ignore them altogether. The basic story was good, it was just the way it was executed that was the problem. I'm on Vader Down right now, which has particularly amazing artwork, probably because it's a crossover between Vader and the main Star Wars comic.

I also picked up Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir because it apparently is based on a Clone Wars arc that they didn't end up doing for the revival.

Have you watched The Clone Wars? I think they did a good job of working politics into it in an interesting way. And they actually gave Padme a lot more to do in the show.

The politics in the PT wouldn’t be bad if it felt more connected to the plot and organic. Lucas just handled it awkwardly