The Jews said that Jesus trusted in God, and that He claimed He was the Son of God. So did they understand Jesus as saying that He was God?
Not possible.
The Trinity doctrine makes it impossible for Jesus to be the LITERAL Son of God, which thus makes it impossible for God to be His LITERAL Father; so it denies both the Father and Son, which is Antichrist, Biblically.
Well, that's always been the position of The Church (Orthodox, and to some extent Catholicism), which is that God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is the greatest Mystery. He is The Mystery. If God (Father) could be known, then He is not God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Doubt is as much a part of Christianity as is Faith. Doubt is built into the religion itself. But, I digress:
God (Father) approaches us through Christ (Son) in a language we can understand, His "Word" or Logos. He is the Son, begotten, not created. An important distinction. The Holy Spirit: The Life-Giving Spirit of God
(Bolded the distinction between East and West, AFAIK. The Western church teaches that the Holy Spirit comes from Christ, the Son. The East teaches that the Holy Spirit comes from the Father, only. The importance of that detail, I'm still learning.)
The Holy Trinity is God's Mystery personified. How can One be Three in One and equal to Three and One at the same time? Makes no logical sense does it? Of course not. If God made logical sense, He wouldn't be God. The ultimate Unknown quantity. But, then again, it made logical sense to us at one time that the world is flat.
It's hard enough to attempt to approach (understand) God's Mystery with that in mind. So difficult that some give up altogether and revert to the claim that God is polytheistic. Moses battled this tendency throughout the OT. It is to place human limitations on God to claim that "Since I, an enlightened Human, can't understand God's mysteries, therefore *insert your favorite assertion about God." It's a bit geocentric to do so.
I believe what @<a href="https://www.typologycentral.com/forums/members/36308.html" target="_blank">Huldah</a> is attempting is to simplify God into a known quantity because that is the habit of Literalists. Literalists can't abide the unknown, so they seek to know God through their own subjective filters(Sola scriptura - Wikipedia), which is why she's spitting Bible verses she interprets as supporting her position. God is such a mystery to her that she speaks of Him in the human term of polytheism.
If I wanted to kill Asians, I bet I could find a reason in the Bible to kill Asians. And that's the problem. Literalists each see themselves as the authority and read the Bible how they wish, individually, instead of collectively with the proper context in mind. Atheists do this, too but that's because Atheists in the US come from a culture of Biblical Literalism. So ingrained into the culture is this Literalism that Atheist do it themselves. [Aside: I think it's particularly cute when Literalists (of both stripes) catch vapors upon learning that the Bible is a compiled and written work by the apostles and church fathers (men). Like the Bible was supposed to have descended to earth from the heavens]. I bet if I read the Bible drunk, high, and sober, I'd come away with different interpretations each time. For this reason, the interpretation is "Peer reviewed" in ecumenical councils, from the beginning.
Pot, meet kettle:
"The Orthodox Church recognizes marriage as the only moral and spiritually appropriate context for sexual relations. Thus, all other forms of sexual activity such as fornication, adultery, homosexuality, lesbianism, pornography, all forms of prostitution, and similar forms of behavior are sins that are inappropriate for the Orthodox Christian. Marriage is only conducted and recognized in the Orthodox Church as taking place between a man and a woman. Same-sex marriages are a contradiction in terms. The Orthodox Church with the Holy Scriptures does not allow for same-sex marriages."
From the Word Magazine, the Orthodox statement on homosexuality:
"Thus the function of the sexual organs of a man and a woman and their bio-chemical generating forces in glands and glandular secretions are ordained by nature to serve one particular purpose, the procreation of the human kind."
"Therefore, any and all uses of the human sex organs for purposes other than those ordained by creation, runs contrary to the nature of things as decreed by God and produces the following wrongs:"
Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches are the worst of the literalists, so much so that your position against biblical literalism makes you sound like a liberal protestant.
What exactly are you arguing? Donald Rumsfeld, and "Sex is good because it feels good, and I like to have sex?" Are you basing your worldview on the fact that people like sex? I bet my daughters would base their worldview on Barbies and ice cream if we let them.
Your Donald Rumsfeldian "known unknowns" defense of the trinity does not pass muster, as it merely resorts to mysticism and an appeal to pseudo-authority (i.e. the church's position). These are also cliches cults employ ("It's a mystery beyond explanation"), so it simply can't be validated as a sound response.
-- Luke 14:26"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
You also have to remember that the church's position on many of these social and political issues are based on intensely literal interpretations of the bible. Its just not sex....it could be something as medieval and arcane as the Catholic Church's crusade against stem cell research. Roman and orthodox are the ultimate in biblical literalism. You are orthodox. So when you are attacking somebody's position for being too biblically literal, you are cutting your nose off to spite your face. That's giving up too much ground to defend the concept of the trinity imo. You shapeshifting into a liberal protestant like that.
Ever since the 18th century Enlightenment, people have tended to become polarized over the issue of reading the Bible. On one side we find “biblical literalists,†those who read the sacred writings as though they were primarily history books that present us with a series of facts and events on everything from the creation of the world (in six calendar days) to the Second Coming (with trumpets from Heaven, a place “up thereâ€). On the other side there are scholars who adopt a historical-critical approach that has little confidence in the historical accuracy of biblical texts, but focuses rather on the content and argument of a given writing, the circumstances that gave rise to it, and its function within the community of faith.
Although these approaches seem to be poles apart, they are identical in one major respect. They both assume that the only real meaning to be found in Scripture is the “literal†one. This is usually defined as the meaning “intended†by the biblical author: the sense he understood and attempted to convey. Biblical interpretation (exegesis), therefore, should concentrate on what the text “actually says.†From this perspective, the literal sense of the text is typically reduced to its “historical†sense: either “what really happened†(in the eyes of the biblical literalist) or “what the text claims happened†(as discerned by historical criticism).
The earliest Christian theologians, however, knew better than to limit the work of biblical interpretation to either of these extremes. Against a literalist or purely historical approach, for example, Origen in the third century asked rhetorically regarding the creation stories in the book of Genesis: “What intelligent person would believe that the first, second and third day, and the evening and morning, existed without the sun, moon and stars…and heaven? And who is so silly as to believe that God, after the manner of a farmer, ‘planted a paradise eastward in Eden’?â€
This is not skepticism. It affirms rather that biblical accounts often have more than one meaning, and that the primary meaning is rarely what is referred to as the “literal†or “historical†sense.
-- Saint John Chrysostom“No matter how just your words may be, you ruin everything when you speak with anger.â€
And I still can't get over the fact you erased your first post in response to me because you say you weren't 'satisfied.' what's there to be satisfied about with a post. these aren't some big works of art you're submitting into a museum. It just looked like you second guessed yourself, like you needed more time to take another crack at it but why completely erase it (I don't get), because you're not to sure on the topic and probably not the best representative of the trinity defense perhaps. Sumthin' made ya flinch. In the end, it only diluted the weight of your second response. I think you did yourself a disservice not leaving it up there.
The Trinity was created by theology and it was as only in 1998 we discovevered the universe is accelerating away from every point in every point direction. The theologians did not know this.
What is interesting is that we haven't yet created a meaning for the accelerating expansion of time and space. I wonder what meaning we will create.They knew why this or any other scientific fact would actually have meaning beyond just being a piece of information.
What is interesting is that we haven't yet created a meaning for the accelerating expansion of time and space. I wonder what meaning we will create.
Because we are meaning creating. animals, we are lost without meaning, and will keep on searching until we find it.I think the question Beorn was asking is: Why does there have to be any meaning applied to the acceleration of time and space?
The Trinity was created by theology and it was as only in 1998 we discovevered the universe is accelerating away from every point in every point direction. The theologians did not know this.
Because we are meaning creating. animals, we are lost without meaning, and will keep on searching until we find it.
To account for this, theories called "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter" were later developed.In other words, "What is Dark Matter? I don't know, but it has mass and it's invisible. We can't see it, but we know it's there." Perhaps another one of the great and holy mysteries waiting to be solved.That's assuming meaning is created arbitrarily.
Meaning defines homo sapiens but not other animalsTo account for this, theories called "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter" were later developed.In other words, "What is Dark Matter? I don't know, but it has mass and it's invisible. We can't see it, but we know it's there." Perhaps another one of the great and holy mysteries waiting to be solved.That's assuming meaning is created arbitrarily.
Meaning defines homo sapiens but not other animals
And it is in mythology we will find a meaning for the accelerating expansion of time and space.
Maybe? Perhaps most of the relevant meanings of life has been covered by the current, terrestrial myths. Universal expansion may not have any myths attributed to it because the fact of the matter is inconsequential to daily life on earth. Maybe when we start star hopping will our youngins grow up listening to meanings of expansion? Then again, not every scientific find needs a corresponding “meaning†assigned to it.
In the light of scientific discoveries our mythologies are becoming less believable, becoming less plausible, and it is becoming harder to suspend our disbelief. This is reflected in the growing number of those on the census who describe themselves as "No Religion". In fact we are looking for new mythologies which take account of scientific knowledge, and so become believable, plausible, and enable us to suspend our disbelief.
Our old mythologies are becoming less believable, so we need to create new mythologies. A good place to start is "Creative Mythology" by Joseph Campbell.Of course, from your perspective, and many wonder why none in the secular/non-religious realm are able to effectively repel radical Islamic terror, for instance. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that the expansion/acceleration of the universe has already been accounted for in the language of the spirit:Scientific discoveries rather facilitate spiritual maturity/growth. The two certainly speak separate languages: Material (adj) and Spiritual, and the frequent miscommunication and misunderstanding of the two is an all too common product of Western Scholasticism. For the purpose of staying on topic, lets disregard for now the invocation of argumentum ad populum, and that Ideological Nones have their own material beliefs that they hold to "religiously."
Our old mythologies are becoming less believable, so we need to create new mythologies. A good place to start is "Creative Mythology" by Joseph Campbell.